Now Zoopla hits out at ‘very expensive’ OnTheMarket

Data released yesterday by Zoopla shows that OnTheMarket has “got off to a slow start”, said the portal.

Zoopla also said its own traffic has been unaffected by the launch of OTM and that it had more hits in a single day than OTM had over the whole of February.

It accused OTM of “cannibalising” traffic from its own members’ websites.

Zoopla said that OTM is proving “a very expensive proposition” for its member agents.

However, OTM hit back strongly, last night saying once again that the figures were “wildly inaccurate” and that Zoopla’s listings had almost halved in six months, reducing from 1.1m last September to 630,000 by the end of February.

OTM also said that “over the longer term” it aims to reduce portal fees for agents.

Zoopla’s full release says: “With over a month and a half under its belt and its multi-million pound marketing campaign in full swing with over 3,000 TV ads aired in February alone, the latest independent data from Hitwise confirms that OnTheMarket.com has got off to a slow start with consumers, despite the significant marketing spend and heavy branding by member agents.

“According to February’s full month figures from Hitwise, daily visits to OTM averaged under 38k per day compared with over 1.25 million per day for Zoopla Property Group (ZPG) and 2.4 million per day for Rightmove (RMV).

“OTM’s audience size in February was less than 3% of Zoopla’s and only 1.5% of Rightmove’s and the market share for each of the portals as a percentage of all UK property internet traffic was 0.63% for OTM versus 21.3% for Zoopla and 40% for Rightmove.

“And the latest data for March also shows that ZPG’s audience has so far been unaffected by the launch of OTM and actually experienced record traffic last Monday with more visits in a single day than OTM’s total visits for the entire month of February, according to Hitwise.

“These figures highlight that OTM is currently a very expensive proposition for its members and even more so with the requirement to give up a huge audience by dropping either ZPG or RMV.

“And it is also clear from the data that much of the search traffic to OTM so far is coming at the expense of cannibalizing the traffic to its members’ own websites.

“Lawrence Hall of ZPG said: ‘OTM members are today paying 30 to 40 times more than they should be for their digital marketing whilst offering substantially less exposure to their clients, so they are being disadvantaged both competitively and financially.

“Portals are no different from any other marketing channel that must deliver an audience to its advertisers and charge accordingly. If OTM was charging based on their audience, building traffic fast might be a less urgent priority.

“However, given that they are charging today on a promise for tomorrow, it is hard to see how sustainable it is to continue to force their members to spend more and get far less, effectively achieving the exact opposite of their stated aim of improving the portal value proposition.’”

The full OTM response quotes chief executive Ian Springett and says: “The figures being quoted by Zoopla Property Group with regard to traffic levels at OnTheMarket.com are wildly inaccurate.

“We stand by every figure we have previously stated and there is no question that less than six weeks after our launch, on March 6 and 7, we passed the mark of two million unique visitors to the website. We reiterate that we are confident in becoming the number two portal within a year.

“It is unsurprising that Zoopla has chosen to distribute these figures following the heavy losses it has suffered as a result of our presence in the portals market. We have more than 4,800 contracted offices; around 90% have chosen to leave Zoopla/PrimeLocation.

“In September, Zoopla was claiming on its website to have more than 1.1m houses and flats for sale and to rent across the UK. Searching properties for sale and to rent in England, Wales and Scotland on Zoopla shows that this number has reduced to just over 630,000 as at 27th February.

“The latest inaccurate traffic figures are nothing more than a weak attempt by Zoopla to intimidate agents who have chosen to remove all of their properties and their corresponding advertising expenditure from them to list with OnTheMarket.com

“We have also been told by many member agents that having removed their properties from their less effective portal, it has become obvious just how many leads were previously duplicated, and leaving Zoopla has had no impact on their business. It was and continues to be the choice of our member agents to decide from which portal to remove their listings.

“Many have joined OnTheMarket.com because it provides a better environment in which to bring their clients’ properties to market, without the unhelpful and potentially misleading additional information included by Zoopla on its full details pages nor the intrusive advertising for unrelated products and services which can distract users from the property being advertised.

“Ultimately, the property-seeking public and the agents themselves will decide over time which portals deliver the most value.

“It is over the longer term that OnTheMarket.com aims to reduce portal fees for agents. By restraining and eventually reversing the current rise in fees, this will create more potential headroom for agents to compete more effectively, whether on price or service quality, which will benefit their clients and the property-seeking public in the long term.”

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85 Comments

  1. The Outsider

    Urgh. Even I’m getting bored now.  Get a room guys!

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  2. HarryN

    Do you judge a newspaper by the number of pages it has, or its readership?

    It is very clear that Springer is a ‘pagination’ man.

    Pages cost money, audience earns money…

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    1. Robert May

      Good morning HarryN, you never got around to answering the question I posed yesterday!  I appreciate you thought it an utterly ignorant question but you didn’t ever manage to say why.

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  3. smile please

    Zoopla may well have less property from September last year, some of this may be down to OTM but also don’t forget there seems to be a property draught across the UK which fudges the figures.

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  4. Robert May

    Can anyone, I don’t care who, please explain why the  number of hits on both Rightmove and Zoopla are going through the roof compared with 3 years ago (93,000,000 reported now compared with 14,000,000 in 2012) yet  the avereage number of monthly sales has dropped by 28%?

    A case of; “a little less talking… more action please!”?

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    1. Paul H

      It could well be that not all these visitors are actually looking to buy, sell, rent or let a property Robert or even research about agents to use.  Perhaps some people see the duopoly as a source of information.

      Our population is also growing.

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      1. Robert May

        The population is increasing Paul but not 6 fold in 3 years!
        Whoever or whatever is looking and hitting on Rightmove, Zoopla and OTM doesn’t change the fact that last year 840,000 (or thereabouts) bought property and the number of additional tenancies increased   by about 250,000. Whichever way you cut it up there is no meaningful correlation between  fee opportunity doers and the whatevers  that are  apparently tapping at keyboards, tablets and smartphones like woodpeckers.

         

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        1. Paul H

          Fair point re the population growth although I think it a factor although obviously a minor one.

          As an aside, I went back to my old school last week for the first time in over two decades as I volunteered to carry out some test interviews for the 14 year old pupils. One question we had to ask was…”What are your hobbies/interests”…One said interior design, and I said really and what do you do outside of school associated to it, he said he looks at Rightmove for about two hours a day looking at the inside of peoples properties.

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    2. ukpropmaster

      Robert, you make a good point, but I think you fail to acknowledge that increased brand exposure–even to people who aren’t actively looking to buy or let–is still very valuable and worth paying for.  More people are using Zoopla and Rightmove than they were 3 years ago, and yes many of those new people or people spending more time on the sites are people looking to use the variety of tools they offer, not necessarily because they are serious buyers. But in much the same way that OnTheMarket finds value in putting their brand in front of as many eyeballs as possible (i.e. national TV advertising), despite the fact that many of the viewers aren’t looking to move today, we find value in putting our brand in front of eyeballs as well (i.e. Zoopla visitors researching neighborhoods, using the silly valuation tool, etc.)

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      1. Robert May

        Whose Branding is important? I would suggest it is the individual agent not the service supplier portal who should be  kept firmly in the public limeleight.

         

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        1. ukpropmaster

          Exactly. My branding. My agency.  I want my brand known.  And since there are millions of people using Rightmove and Zoopla, I want my brand there. In all likelihood the people who see my brand there won’t come buy one of my listings tomorrow, but when that person decides to list their own property a year later, the fact that they are used to seeing our logo will help us in winning that instruction.

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          1. Robert May

            So a service supplier who is  happy enough to be subservient to Agency branding but  whose own brand strong enough to get away with such an approach would be a good thing?

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            1. ukpropmaster

              Not sure I follow Robert. I don’t really care how strong the Zoopla or Rightmove brands are, or the fact that my participation is helping to strengthen them. In fact, I see it as a somewhat virtuous cycle.  I help them drive traffic, I get increased exposure from that traffic, and I pay them appropriately.  There is power in aggregation and efficiency in centralising ad spend (should every agent advertise his own branch by spending £mns on TV ad campaigns?).  They help me grow my business and I pay them as long as it makes sense to do so.  They get greedy and I threaten to cut them off. But as long as they can deliver their side of the bargain I see no issues.

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              1. Robert May

                I have a slightly more competitive view than that and  simply don’t care for the process by which your experience, reputation, goodwill, smile, presentation  and performance on the day winning an instruction counts for  almost nothing as soon as it is aggregated.  The benefits favour the aggregator rather than the individual  Agent.
                I had a feeling this discussion would get interesting so have sent you a contact request via Ros.

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    3. garret

      Hi Robert, “hits” to a website is not a straight up representation of how many humans visit the website.

      “Hits” also include “bots” of which there are 1,000’s and as the internet grows, so do the number of bots.

      Slightly old article but explains the situation well enough…

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/12/13/over-60-of-all-website-visits-are-bot-traffic/

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      1. Robert May

        Thank you Garret. To my knowledge it isn’t possible to treat with a bot so realistically they didn’t ever ought to be quoted in any statistics and certainly never as a lever in  subscription negotiations.

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    4. Digital Expert

      I think it is because they have both achieved what can be described as ‘holy grail’ status amongst webstites/brands:

      Destination sites.

      Consumers visit them to browse, research, educate themselves, use tools. Essentially spend their leisure time on them.

      This is HUGELY important, as like Disney Land, if they are there, they’ll spend money.

      This is what RM & Z have spent their whole existence trying to achieve and what 1000’s of newcomers find very difficult & expensive and mostly elusive.

      It’s rare that consumers become so ingrained in a behaviour – the strength of the two portals summed up.

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  5. RealAgent

    So I suppose the really interesting question here is not the stats, they in themselves can be manipulated to say pretty much what you like, its the motivation behind these press releases by Zoopla. If they were really confident that OTM was poor value or not working why bother to say anything at all. After all they must know those that signed up were committed to 5 years!

    I think they are being engaged in conversations left right and centre to stop more agents leaving them.

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    1. danny

      I’d imagine there probably bored of Springett just making stuff up to try and justify his massive salary … 2 million unique users … Every other data source says 2 million visits … That’s probably why

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      1. RealAgent

        Oh really you honestly believe that Danny!?!  If Zoopla is doing so well and providing great value for their customers why say anything at all? Why would they even feel the need to respond. Face it – they are in trouble.

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        1. Clarkuk

          @ Realagent

          Z are damned if they do, damned if they don’t.  If they didn’t respond to all this “we’re taking down Z” talk by Ian Springett you would be asking why they haven’t done anything to respond. When they do respond you jump on the fact that they replied.  The numbers can be manipulated in any way you need but I think we can all agree that Z has larger visitor numbers at the moment and OTM meteoric rise to number 2 is a bit of a slow starter (not saying it hasn’t worked just saying it’s slow) with only 200 new Estate Agents branches in 2 months.

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          1. RealAgent

            I’m sorry Clarkuk but you think that should really be ONLY 200 new estate agency branches in two months??! How many have Z or RM signed up over that period?

            We could get into a whole debate over who started it but I think its fair to say in this instance that OTM are not the ones issuing stats pointing people to the hits and visits. Thats come from Z and I think you need to ask yourself why. Who expected that a site two months old would have the same traffic and one that has been heavily advertising over the last couple of years, who expected a site that doesn’t offer functions that do estate agents no favours whatsoever but increase web traffic, to be recording the same number of hits. I think with respect Clarkuk you are looking at this the wrong way. What you should be saying is that now nearly 5000 offices have moved away, in large part from Zoopla, they are on the ropes but its the manor of their fall I think you should be concerned with. When they go they will make sure that the one portal that is owned and has estate agency interests at its heart is tarnished in the publics mind. No you tell me that you find that even slightly palatable?!

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          2. EHenderson

            I think Springett has played a pretty shrewd game up until recently but this claim to be number 2 by January 2016 will be his downfall…

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      2. EHenderson

        I think they/he genuinely do not know the difference between a visit and a unique user danny.

        In some respects, it doesn’t really matter, but given a visit should be worth about 1/5 of a visitor, it tells you a lot about their understanding of the market they are playing in.

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  6. danny

    Again Springnut talking about property like it matters , look how many of zooplas properties we have taken off them …. Ian , nobody cares less , your beginning to sound like a countrywide lister .. Talk about leads … Visitor numbers , quick lesson in agency for you , if the windows full but nobody buys , nobody gets paid in the real world , I know your a massive retained salary paid for by my peers <tries..to..contain .. Laughter> But I need to attract buyers … Capiche ?

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    1. JAM01

      Sounds like a Countrywide lister? No-one’s THAT good!

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      1. RealAgent

        You save your attack for Ian Springett and yet Zoopla are the ones that have issued this press release, Springett is merely answering the aggression. So tell me Danny, were you one of those low lifes who waited for the big boy to pick on the new guy in the playground and joined in the kicking?! Because if you weren’t I would love to know why, as an estate agent, your first comment wasn’t to condemn Zoopla for yet another press attack on a rival?!

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        1. EHenderson

          Hang on a second RealAgent, I had one of Springett’s reps in my business 2 weeks ago telling me that Zoopla were finished – you expect them not to respond to that by putting traffic numbers out there?

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          1. RealAgent

            I’m sure you are an important business in estate agency terms EH but are you seriously suggesting that Zoopla should be issuing these sorts of press releases based on what a sales rep said in your office?! There has been a dirty tricks campaign from day 1 but I think in the midst of all of this it is easy to forget that OTM is OWNED by estate agents, Springett was appointed to run it and has in my opinion so far done an extremely good job of that. You don’t need to like the man, Ive met him maybe once and can’t say he has a warming demeanour but thats largely irrelevant. No no estate agent can ever argue is that OTM hasn’t got the best for the industry at its core. You can choose to not join, you can find fault with some of their demands of membership, you can even say you are happy with Z and RM and have no need to move, but what I fail to comprehend is why there would ever be violent opposition to it. For that one has to really question someones motivation for posting.

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            1. EHenderson

              I have chosen not to join, correct.

              The problem with this misguided project is that it does have an effect on my business. I was quite enjoying that Rightmove had their wings clipped by Zoopla. Now, thanks to the actions of you and others, I am waiting with some trepidation to see what whopping great increase will be pushed my way this year. Good work.

              The fundamentalists out there will say ‘take matters into your own hands, sign up to OTM’, completely ignoring the fact that by doing so I achieve exactly the opposite of what I want to achieve.

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              1. RealAgent

                And what good did Zoopla’s gains over the last years or so do you. They actually put THEIR prices up. Goodness me will loyal like yours they would have been dictating your business within a couple of years. Thank goodness there were some sensible agents that saw that one coming!

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        2. danny

          Real agent.. we are out of the playground now , this is a big boys world . You fight for what you believe in. Personally I have a hunch that this new boy has been sent in to the school to try and take the dinner money off the comprehensive lads to give to his mates at the Grammar School so they can have a feast and not invite the others….and lets face it, Springett is hanging his hat on to this 2 million users thing, zoopla and just presenting evidence that points out its b*ll*cks.

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          1. RealAgent

            Actually Danny I think you will have to concede that Zoopla are producing the stats and Springett is trying to defend OTM . But again thats fair I acknowledge you don’t want to join OTM, but please tell me why you think its a bad thing for the industry. A website without commercial interests aside from estate agents themselves, one that if enough people join can reduce costs and one that has no agenda regarding the long term control of an industry. So I ask you again what is wrong with any of that?

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            1. danny

              Real agent, ive said it before and ill say it again…this isnt a website for the industry…its a website for the top end of the industry masqueraded as a good thing for the industryLook at the ad spend, Hare and Hounds, country life. My vendors and buyers dont read those, The Times, The Mail etc etc . This isnt a play for the good of the industry, its an attempt to get a high end niche website for the founders paid for by the rest of us,with Springett doing his “snakeoil salesman” bit..do you really believe that Glentree Estates who sells £5 million property in London gives a toss about £500 a month in portal fees ? Yet he get together with Knight Frank , SAvills Et all to create a portal for “everyone” …. smells fishier than Grimsby docks

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              1. RealAgent

                You’ve picked some areas of advertising in isolation: what about the money spent on ITV, Channel 4, Channel 5. its a complete market coverage but I would agree not all of that marketing spend is going to benefit every agent but how could it? Would it be equally fair NEVER to spend money in those publications just because I don’t have many properties to advertise in them? I think you also do me a dis-service, I knew which agents were involved with the set up, but actually that was secondary to what I hoped the site would achieve. In the long run and I stress long run it was to give agents back control over their data and where it was advertised and avoiding the long term implications of commercial companies controlling a market place. Now please tell me honestly that you see that as being a bad thing?

                As for Savills, KF and Glentree they have one vote each, I have one too, so all I need is two other mates and I cancel out their vote. Thats power to the little folk!

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                1. EHenderson

                  Why take any advertising in Countrylife at all Real Agent – doesn’t make any sense at all and is a terrible return on investment for everyone involved – and even more for everyday agents.

                  Wake up and smell the coffee. You’ve been done over (unless you’re actually an OTM rep masquerading as an agent?).

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                  1. RealAgent

                    Oh right yes of course I’m a rep…..how many of your comments are on other stories on this site today?!

                    Well you can apply that logic to anything, do Zoopla consult you when they take agents or themselves to see an event at the O2, you’ve paid for their box there after all!

                     

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                2. danny

                  Thats right, one agent …one vote. How many votes have you had so far ? Its an illusion of control, nothing more, ther eis no real power , everything is decided by the baord and rolled downward , same as every other company. The only difference is your paying for it to happen…yes I pay Zoopla and Rightmove but they provide me a return on that money, ive seen no evidence that would suggest that OTM is a good investment .

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    2. Robert May

      A  good commission only salesman can expect to pick up 20% commission to replace not  having a salary. An average salesman  will normally pick up salary  + commission  which will average between 5  & 10%.

      If you put Mr Springetts achievement in perspective he is, only if hearsay is true,  only pulling the equivalent of  about 2.6 % commission.
      He has taken on two huge corporate competitors and has signed up 24% of the UK target customer base. Stop complaining about his salary, it might be bigger than yours but it is still comparatively cheap for what he has achieved.

       

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      1. RealAgent

        A fair point Robert and isn’t it interesting how no one went on about how much money Alex Chesterman made out of signing up agents and then dumping a large chunk of his stock for millions based on their contributions.

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        1. Robert May

          Alex Chesterman didn’t build anything, he acquired most of what he has from  corporate executives who really ought to have known better. The day he got his hands on Think property was the day his fortune was made, He then married well into DPG with Primelocation, Findaproperty and Northcliffe all in the family. An awful lot of people have been impressed by the apparent achievements of Zoopla but being blunt and honest (as usual) how and why Zoopla has not over taken  Rightmove  in the past 3  years is quite beyond my comprehension.

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  7. Fred Jones

    If OTM’s intention was to reduce agents cost as they say, how come they wanted to charge my agency over 30% more than Zoopla. even when this was pointed out to them there was no start up discount like Zoopla offered.

    I understand that the cost to any business is high for the service of a portal, but if their intension was to reduce agents cost why charge us more to start?

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    1. EHenderson

      Fred – the deals are flowing now. From the conversations I have had, the agents who signed up first to OTM are tied into 5 year contracts. Those who have signed more recently have been offered 3 month contracts!

      Hmmn – how exactly is this a mutual organisation?

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  8. Fred Jones

     
    1.        If OTM’s intention was to reduce agents cost as they say, how come they wanted to charge my agency over 30% more than Zoopla.
    Even when this was pointed out to them, there was no start up discount like Zoopla offered.
     
    I understand that the cost to any business is high for the service of a portal, but if their intention was to reduce agents cost why charge us more to start?
     

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    1. Clarkuk

      Fred he says it’s ‘long term’ so in other words: You pay NOW for less exposure (whatever the figures are they all agree that Z is outperforming OTM) and in the end, whenever that may be, the other portals MAY charge less and all estate agencies all win in the end!

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      1. ukpropmaster

        Yeah or I could just let YOU pay more now for less exposure, and if and when it ever offers comparable exposure I could join then…

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  9. JAM01

    The only figures that matter are how many of the 4,900 branches currently with OTM are happy and plan to remain. Like in estate agency, those agents that constantly worry about what the other ones are doing are focusing on the wrong things and are, or will become, the 80% of agents scrapping for the lowly 20% of the business. The agents that do well, who are in the top 20%, get 80% of the business and are not interested in what the others are doing. Same with portals. …..and if ANYONE is relying on portals as the mainstay to selling property, watch out, there’s a closure about! Focus on your own business and let the rest worry about you. If you are worrying about them, you are in the bottom 80%. Trust me….I’m an estate agent!

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  10. wilko

    I’ll give a tenner to agents giving if anyone can spot the false post from me today.

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    1. Robert May

      Shall I stick just one post between them to make it a tad harder to spot Wilko?

      You owe Jane an Ayrton (Senna)

       

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      1. wilko

        Tenner duly donated!

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        1. Robert May

          Well done Wilko!

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  11. wilko

    Wow thanks Zoopla for pointing out continually how bad OTM are in every department. I’m calling my Z rep right now to re-join them.

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  12. Harree

    Danny … 2 million unique users … Every other data source says 2 million visits. Population of the UK 64 million, lets say 50 million aged between 20-70, so AM are saying 1 in 25 of those have visited OTM? Absolute nonsense and clearly inaccurate. If AM are putting dross figures out Z have every right to rubbish them.

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  13. Gump

    This is getting boring as you like, when you are all ready to drop RM as well, hit me up.

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    1. Harree

      Gump – if its boring you why keep reading?

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      1. Gump

        Because you all keep me amused 🙂

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  14. GPL

    Once again Zoopla demonstrate why they are a waste of portal effort… soooo much time protecting No 2 spot and no time spent tackling No 1 spot.

    Zoopla stands for NO AMBITION, NO DRIVE, NO STRATEGY to exit No 2 portal and occupy No 1.

    Are we sure that Zoopla aren’t related to Rightmove because they cosy up to Great Auntie Rightmove not daring to rock the boat?

    It’s staggering to note how poorly Zoopla have performed hence their nosediving stockmarket performance. No wonder investors flock to Rightmove?

    OnTheMarket seek to replace Zoopla at No 2 and 7 weeks… only 7 weeks in!… have demonstrated what they are capable of!… Zoopla have had how many years of standing at the portal street corner looking & performing like the tired old portal that they are!

    Give it a rest Zoopla… you failed to perform! It’s the challenge of Rightmove that matters… Zoopla remain the dead portal walking.

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  15. Paul

    Forget all of the he said she said, hit this, hit that.  The only thing that counts is if you want to support OTM or not.  If you don’t want to align yourself with OTM then fine, rationalise it in your own mind and make your choice. The one thing I would say though, is that don’t use hits or visits, individual or otherwise in that thought process.  Most business take time to get up to full power, most businesses loss money during that process.  Think not about the things that were always going to happen, think about the goal and the how we will get there.  Its a simple process and involves agents coming together to create a portal that has real gravitas.  Be under no illusion, without the agents, OTM is doomed, but I won’t blame the hits, the spend, the site itself, or anything else people want to throw in the mix.  I will know that the only reason it failed was due to not enough agents getting behind it. Nothing more, nothing less.  I won’t return to Zoopla either if that happens, because I know I don’t need them to be successful.  What I will do right now, is look at what has been achieved 8 weeks in and how we are half way to that goal, set against a backdrop of sniper fire coming at OTM from all quarters. The City, The Press, The Men in Purple Suits, The On-liners, The Unknown Posters,  The Corporates, The RM Reps, The IT Specialists, The Agents that can’t live without RM & Zoopla to sell houses (or believe that!),  The Marketing Experts, The Analysts, The Agent Haters and The Trolls.  They have all had their say and all bashed away.  But guess what… OTM is still here, well supported and half way to it’s goal.  If it can do that with all of the above going on, then think what it could do with another 5000 on board.

    Some of you have been through not one, but two recessions and survived!!

    Yet faced with the decision of dropping a portal and going with OTM, feel this would have worse consequences on your businesses than those two monumental events.   Come on, you are better than that and you know it.

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    1. Paul H

      Well said Paul, brilliant post.

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    2. Ric

      Spot on and highlights the most frustrating part of OTM. We hear so many agents who “will support it when it becomes number 2 or 1” but until then would rather watch and hope YET the key factor to this working is Agents and Agents alone. Back to the first set of argument/debates. The more agents, the more property the more popular the website.

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      1. ukpropmaster

        Yes but some of us are in the business of selling properties, not venture capital investing.  I make decisions that make my business money, in the short and long run.  If OTM ever gets off the ground I can gladly go join it then, no loss to me. If it doesn’t, then I don’t waste my money trying to help it.  I’d prefer not think about having to support a newborn company–starting my own was hard enough! I’ll just keep selling houses and using the tools that help me do that most effectively.

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        1. Paul

          But you are happy wasting your money one of your current portals you don’t need, if you are on RM & Zoopla?

          This isn’t about taking a punt, it’s about making a change.

          OTM is already off the ground and half way to it’s goal.

          If you can multi task, you can be in the business of selling houses and supporting OTM, a site you own and have a say in.

          Imagine if you had the support of 5000 when you opened your business, it wouldn’t have been so hard.  There is no comparison in supporting OTM to you opening your business, you worked hard and made sacrifices to get your business working.  The time and effort you need to make OTM work pales into the insignificant.

          It takes allsorts to make a change, some people just don’t want to, don’t care to or see nothing in it for them to do so.  Most are happy to come along for the ride when the hard work has been done by others.  Some meanwhile are happy to get their hands dirty and drive the bus to the next destination.

          Thank goodness there are people in the world that do and are prepared to take risks and stand up for themselves and others.  That’s why we move forward, make things better as well as create and innovate.

          The only tool that can help you sell houses most effectively is you.

           

           

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          1. ukpropmaster

            I am very confident that I am not wasting my money on the two portals I am on (Rightmove and Zoopla).  We constantly monitor the data we get and run all sorts of tests to help us verify what we see (i.e. putting select properties on only RMV for 3 days, or vice versa) so we have a very good idea of what kind of ROI we are getting from each, and both are very positive at the moment.  As to your diatribe about “making a change” and “standing up for yourself,” that’s just not how I view the world. If I am getting value out of Zoopla, I’ll pay for Zoopla, simple as that.  When I no longer get value out of it over and above what I am paying, or could be getting more value out of something else like OnTheMarket, then I’ll gladly make the appropriate decision at that time.

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            1. Paul

              You will never know if you don’t come off.

              You believe that you get your leads and your sales by being on both.  I know that those leads and sales still come just by being on one.  You don’t need both.

              So you are not getting value for money, you are paying for leads that will come your way anyway.

              P.S. I’m not angry.

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        2. wilko

          Ukpropmaster states; ” If OTM ever gets off the ground I can gladly go join it then, no loss to me”……….I think you will find there will be a GREAT loss to you if you DON’T help to get OTM off the ground…….How does £3,000+ per branch per month for RM grab you?(their 5 year target) Not to mention your losses that you don’t see as YOUR data on RM is sold onto 3rd parties, ….. and not to mention the fact that RM have already got in place the system to take private listings (they already do on overseas and uk commercial)…..do I need to go on?. SUPPORT OTM and help to get it where it needs to be and be rewarded with £250 per month listings fee, no private/online listings and no selling on of YOUR property data.

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          1. ukpropmaster

            wilko, please read my post above.  I personally don’t care if RM charges me £10k per branch per week if the value I am getting from it (which we measure and monitor closely) is more than the cost.  It’s really that simple. As I said previously, if diehards like yourself want to put in the capital, time, and effort to get OTM to a place where I can pay £250 per month and I get value over and above what I’m giving up by leaving one of the others, I will gladly join.  But again, I am in the business of selling property, not starting an internet business, and I’m not going to be convinced to make non-economic decisions for my business or our clients.

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            1. Woodentop

              Are you then only on RM?

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            2. wilko

              ukpropmaster…..You don’t mind that the portal(s) you are currently on are selling your data to 3rd parties so that the 3rd parties can sell them mortgages, sell them their next property, sell them conveyancing?…..You really don’t mind that?  If you sell someones’ property do you then e mail all their details to your nearest competitor so they can find the next property for YOUR seller and then do their mortgage?….Because that is what is happening EVERY day you are trading and happily advertising on your current portals…..and that is a FACT. The selling on of agency data is the MAIN reason that MOST agencies have formed /joined AM. The £250 eventual listing fees are a bonus bi product of the success of OTM. Like woodentop says…..no anti am seems to address these more serious points.

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            3. EAMD

              ukp – you mention ‘leaving one of the others’ so I assume that you’re on both. One really interesting piece of research that we did before moving to OTM was not to look at traffic but to look at completions and applicant/seller source. When you get down to the nitty gritty of which portal actually earns you money and how much they earn, it becomes a very different picture to number of leads provided. It made our decision very easy. We are still selling as many properties this year as last. OTM is producing a good amount of leads (more lettings than sales so far) and we are saving money as well as moving our industry on. You sound like someone who monitors your business effectively, and obviously you are a decent size player, so it’s definitely worth a look. Just a thought.

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          2. Woodentop

            Wilko, that is exactly the argument that not one anti OTM post has ever addressed and yet is fundamental to running a business and why OTM came about. All I hear is it will not or isn’t working. Well approx. 5000 members is no failure and it is working. They say those that moan, are the worried competition or fail to see the light. It is your choice to be in or out if you have not joined OTM but going on and on is becoming tedious and at times very silly.

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        3. Ric

          oh ukpropmaster ALL the agents on here are in the business of selling property and making money! How many they sell, how much money some make and how they go about it is a different matter!

          You come across as if you think OTM supporters are mainly loss making companies hoping that OTM will change their fortunes.

          There is a logic behind OTM (that you clearly get) but you have decided not to help it grow and say you will join when it eventually works….. good on you, your call, congrats, but don’t sound so arrogant to think all OTM agents are not making plenty of money or are not in the business of selling property. It just sounds stupid to me that you think we are all sat here thinking of OTM more than our businesses. Most dip in and out of here for some fun with the whole debate.

           

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    3. RealAgent

      I agree good post Paul. The only people that matter that haven’t had a problem with it is our vendors, not one has questioned it. Not one has felt we were restricting their marketing, not one has dis-intructed us and not one has used not being on Z as a reason they haven’t instructed us.

      Instead we have seen a 35% across the board increase in business, we have seen the average value of property we have taken on go up (a little bit to do with prices I concede) but also to do with the fact that in our area you have KF, Savills then us!

      Finally tthis Saturday just gone we had a viewing day on one property that we had to sell quickly for the vendor. We launched on Monday to our mailing list, OTM Wednesday, local paper Thursday and by Friday, 48 hours after OTM, when it appeared on RM we were already oversubscribed for viewings that day. We’ve booked a second Saturday for the RM enquiries but to be frank the vendor looks like she has got 5% over asking already and we will struggle to suggest they don’t take that. As we said to one lady who said it wasn’t fair that the property had only just appeared on RM, it has been on since Monday and on OTM since Wednesday so perhaps look there next time. She doesn’t need to worry, we have her details now so will be calling her but I bet she is now looking at OTM. One brick at a time!

       

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  16. TN Agent

    All of us agents are in competition with each other, right? The big 6 couldn’t give a monkey’s about one voice etc. If we all adopt the same marketing strategy then we stay where we are in terms of market share. If we’re 3rd or 4th or lower down the rankings within our footprint – make the most of OTM – let others join them and win more instructions from them. Simples.

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  17. Paul

    “If we all adopt the same marketing strategy then we stay where we are in terms of market share”

    So that’s why you think you couldn’t get more market share before OTM came along then?!

    You will now become more successful because your competitors are OTM?!

    That’s your new different marketing strategy?

    If RM & Zoopla were so brilliant in making agents successful, why don’t all agents have the same number of offices, the same market share?  Why are some able to get 1.5-2.0% where other agents are doing 0.75% and 1%?

    It’s because of you!

    The reason you can’t move up in market share is not because you all have the same marketing strategy and if RM & Zoopla IS your marketing strategy, then that’s where you need to start and maybe then you can take a bit more market share!

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    1. TN Agent

      I’m quite a new agent. Thought I had to be where the eyeballs are as a minimum. YoY market share up 27% since I’ve been able to tell my Sellers and Landlords I can more widely expose their properties than those on OTM. This in a market where everyone says there’s a dearth of stock. Seems to be working for me. So yes – in terms of Portals, Z/RM IS my marketing. More fool special agents who think they know best. It’s all about the owners to begin with. Then my work starts. Ad nauseam.

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      1. Paul

        Are all those eyeballs buying?  Are all those eyeballs giving you instructions?

        If you are doing so well in the first place, don’t those Sellers and Landlords know you already?  Surely they have seen all your boards up, adverts on your own website, spoken to loads of happy customers and got recommended?

        Or do they have to log on to RM to find all that out?

        The public don’t care if you are on RM & Zoopla, they want to work with someone they can trust and want a trouble free sale that results in getting the best possible price.

        The only people that care are those with something to lose or those that can’t offer anything else to a potential client other than shouting I’m on every portal under the sun.

        As those that think they know best are by default the ones with an opposite view to you, I’m pleased to welcome you to fools corner with us Special Agents 😉

        Credo nos in fluctu eodem esse  (not)

         

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      2. Ric

        I would be surprised if any agent increasing a share by 27% (which by the way means ****** all without the actual numbers) would be on here boasting about the thing what is working best.

        Interestingly though, our local non OTM agents are crica 20% down on market share! I suspect if you are doing well it is your company not Z or RM.

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  18. Jonnie

    blimey, are Z still honking on about http://www.onthemarket.com? – surely if they are the pimple on the jacksie of the portal world that Z say then they would just keep a dignified silence and look after their agents instead we have them banging on about how dreadful an 8 week old portal is as though they think its going to mortally damage them – Jonnie

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    1. Paul H

      The Zoopla share price continues to fall, they have possibly a month to get some real numbers back or they’re share price will plummet.

      I suspect we will see the intensity pick up even more in the next few weeks, behave tried there hardest this week bless em!

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  19. GPL

    Thwaaaaaack!… the sound of my ukplopmaster embossed Rugby Ball being booted right out of the stadium!

    Either a non-estate agent or a leech sucking whatever they can with no input into our industry… and there’s the problem… ukplopmaster & co, if they are estate agents unwilling to invest in our industry.

    Thank goodness we went through 2 World Wars where so many stepped forward for the benefit of us all. ukplopmaster would have been sitting their in dark alleyways selling nylons and

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    1. Robert May

      I am  calling off side on that comment!!! That is an analogy too far and in my opinion bad taste.   If you are awake you might be best advised to ask Ros to delete it. Not because it damages your reputation but because of the damage it is likely to do to  Agent’s Mutual.

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  20. Paul H

    £10k per month per branch I bet they love him at Rightmove towers.

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  21. EAMD

    It’s interesting that Zoopla are focussing on competing with OTM rather than RM. His aspiration seems now about survival rather than achieving his well-known primary goal which was to knock RM off top spot. Unfortunately for both the big boys, as they focussed their efforts on the end user rather than those paying the bills, their money will eventually stop coming in to both, it’s free market inevitability. For anyone that hasn’t already moved to OTM – from an original sceptic – it’s liberating and so worth it!!

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  22. Brad

    Rightmove profit up 20% = £124.6 million! Correct me if I’m wrong but we needed a new portal to tackle the giant and make costs more REASONABLE for everyone. It wouldn’t bother me who I advertised with OTM, Zoopla or another, they all do the same thing. The simple fact is Rightmove have taken advantage of agents not willing to challenge the giant. Instead we are arguing over the real challenger Zoopla and the side kick OTM? Haven’t we lost direction on why so many backed the concept of OTM when it was announced. The big invoices are still at the door once a month from the mighty one, while the rest of you bicker over the also rans. The answer is very simple ditch Rightmove, let them feel the pinch, they were scared for a while – their shares dipped, they broke out in a sweat and then the unthinkable happened. We all stood by them! THE RESULT – THEY ARE BIGGER STRONGER AND MORE UGLY THAN EVER BEFORE! Wake up and smell the coffee. Multiple offices  pay extortionate amounts per town – (including satellite offices), but how much do so called internet agents pay to cover the whole country? There is NO loyalty from RM they are only where they are today through the agents who pushed the brand down the consumers throats via their window displays, on property details and even on their business cards, what do we get in return – 300% increase in fees over 7 years!!!

    One day a wise man woke up and said, today I will shop no more in Tesco, I will save myself money and buy more for less in our smaller more friendly convenient stores like Lidl and Aldi and Tesco will begin to hurt. Tesco will begin to fail!

    That same man may wake up one day and said I will advertise no more on Rightmove, I will save myself money and advertise in more places for less on smaller, more friendly and convenient places. I will move my stock to OTM and Zoopla and see Rightmove hurt! This man will be victorious, this man will make a difference, this man will be considered a leader, he may even be called David and beat the giant Goliath!

    The house hunters didn’t quibble they changed their property searches to where they would find the properties. Zoopla, OTM or another? When people search they will find!

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  23. GregWood

    This says it all……. ‘And the latest data for March also shows that ZPG’s audience has so far been unaffected by the launch of OTM and actually experienced record traffic last Monday with more visits in a single day than OTM’s total visits for the entire month of February, according to Hitwise’.

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