Another agent in up-market Winchester has announced that it will be dropping Zoopla when OnTheMarket launches on January 26.
Belgarum said that along with “many other Winchester agents” it will be using OnTheMarket.
It said: “After extensive research, Belgarum have decided to cease advertising on Zoopla, given the majority of traffic and customer leads come via Rightmove.
“Zoopla has a lot of traction in some areas of the UK. However, the Winchester market has much greater presence on, and interaction via, Rightmove.”
Charters in Winchester has also announced dropping Zoopla, while other firms with a strong presence in Hampshire’s cathedral city include Knight Frank, Savills, Chewton Rose (part of Spicerhaart), Jackson Stops & Staff, Savills, Strutt & Parker and Winkworth. All have announced dropping Zoopla.
Winchester, which might have been seen to be exemplar PrimeLocation territory, could now be an indicative battle ground.
Some independents have yet to declare their hands.
The city also has corporates including Reeds Rains, Your Move, Hamptons, Fox & Sons and Connells, which will continue to offer both Rightmove and Zoopla but not OnTheMarket.
It will be interesting to see how such a scenario plays itself out in a number of other towns and cities.
The aim of the "On the Market" web site is to become the number 1 property portal. If the majority of estate agents throughout the country remain with "Rightmove" this will not have the desired effect of making "On the Market" the market leader. "Rightmove" will remain the market leader and have a detrimental effect on "On the Market" Don't estate agents throughout the country realise this!!!
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Not on here they dont realise it Peter. All these Agents who are singing,shouting and dancing about OTM and all backing Rightmove. Its easy pulling off Z when you have got a big fat insurance policy behind you called Rightmove!. I keep asking when and how they are all pulling off Rightmove but none of them will tell me. If and when they do , OTM will then become what i originally hoped thought it would be….no1 portal.
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Establishing oneself as a firm No.2 is a realistic way of getting to No.1……patience grasshopper….
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At least Ric answered the question. You seem to be just shutting your eyes and hoping.
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Well I think focusing on stage 1 is the only thing just now….it is not a small event to get 1000s of agents to jump in the same direction on anything (ie to have OTM involvement) at the same time…we should be happy with that for now- surely .
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Not if it shoots us in the foot.
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Could this happen? (Current market share on portals) RM 100%, Z 75% and OTM 0%………………..(26th Market share) RM 90% Z 40% and OTM 50%………………….(phase 2) OTM Agents take stock off RM…….. RM go from 90% to say 60%…………… all will be clearer on the 26th as to the damage which can be done to RM……… I would not personally be that comfortable if I were RM knowing they are next like it or not, as the plan for OTM is clear and simple…..Its not about the number of agents this, it is about the STOCK they hold and look at the names locally getting involved……My company and the ones around us who will leave Z means Z will have about 5% of the local stock, RM 100% as they are now, BUT OTM will have some 90% now! SO OTM becomes a big player locally for us.
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Little steps…..little steps…….
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Thank you for answering the question Ric. It needs that first Agent to make that little step and be the first one to pull off R when all their competitors are still on, thats one ballsy decision I cant see many Agents prepared to make.
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Hi Disillusioned……. I agree in that I still wonder will everyone commit to stage 2……. but this for me has been the only real opportunity to support, I think the set up and plan has been superb so far…….. what OTM has also shown or will show is the market share which could be taken off RM by its (OTM) members if they did this over night mass dropping of RM, in the past we have just had "people" saying on various forums "we hate RM and would love to come off bla bla" without any intention to ever do so……………………..but you can now argue that paying for OTM for 5 years shows some pretty strong intent and no OTM agent (I assume, I know) will be sat there thinking they want to have increased costs in year 6…………. if it works great and if it does not I will be gutted, but can/will continue as I was up until 26.1.15 on the belief you only need one portal really and why not have it owned by the people who actually make it worth while visiting……………… PS Sorry AM, I have removed my logos from the window……with all this Snow, I look like a ready made RAF target practice site for the local snowball throwers!
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We (along with about 30 other agents in our part of Gods country) got organised and did it. There are whole swathes of South / West Wales where the vast majority of agents have pulled off RM. In fact in our area, I think there are only 2 agents left on RM out of over 30. I reckon we need to think tactically; RM is our biggest competitor – why would we want to supprt it more than Z?
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Hi Ric, Is that the plan? has it been spoken about that at a set date (TBC) existing OTM members will drop RM and solely be on OTM? or is that an expectation? – For me at least if those comments are coming from within the "Board" of AM that does make me a lot more excited at the prospect of OTM
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Hi smile please…… this perhaps is the message which has not been spoken about enough……….. There is no "agreement" at present that this will happen BUT (call it expectation), I am pretty sure if you were to ask every OTM agent, would they drop RM when the time is right (Key being when the time is right), knowing that this could make OTM the 1st stop for house hunters (ie mass stock shift like Z to OTM)….. then I am sure they would all say yes……….. or put another way……. if we can save you £20k to £50k and more per year in some cases by implementing stage 2 which is a mass drop of RM would you be interested…… again why wouldn't you?….. We need a particular moment in time to agree this and I am sure there will be a vote at some point for stage 2, I will certainly be asking for it as time goes on…….. but the time has to be when we know taking the stock numbers OTM has away from RM will tip the balance to OTM which is when you again have the current Z situation……… Why anyone thinks what is being done to Z cannot be done to RM is crazy, but it has to be a call to do this at a time you can see phase 2 will work….. unfortunately this is where the more fence sitters came over the quicker and easier phase 2 would be…… but the gamble of phase 1 looks to be paying off, phase 2 should actually be less of a gamble as it collects more and more support. (How I see it)
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I look forward to hearing more about phase 2 in the coming months then!
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Clearly some random number pulled out of mid air. Current market share, RM clearly does not have 100% and Z more than 75%, from what I've read, both are more like 85%-90%.
Lets say OTM have 90% (not that they will), but only 2%/10% etc. of the population have heard of them, that's not a lot of people actually viewing those properties, so less visits means properties get less viewing, agents less leads = less happy clients + clients moving agents which wider consumer visits.
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Honestly the consumer visits argument is dead (and this is coming from a non-otm member) – People will go to where the properties are. It really is as simple as that, Yes for a while OTM will not get as much traffic but with agents advertising it, local national press, the true buyers will find it in no time. And even if they don't the property is still either on Z or RM!
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I also posted this below 1st time buyer…..Just had a quick look to see all the agents in Winchester and based on the agents listed above dropping Zoopla the amount of sales listings will be as follows; Z 352 OTM 513 OTM will instantly be No2 portal.
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The strategy is simple – divide and conquer! All you need to do is sign up with OTM. That's it! If everybody did it RM & Z would be gone within 5 years.
With respect, you don't need to question their strategy. I'm sure everybody has their own views but they simply can't all be accommodated as nothing would ever happen. Have faith in the OTM board which comprises a fantastic, experienced team. These guys know what they're doing – have faith and commit. Get on board and make a difference rather than stand by the roadside criticising!
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With respect I do need to question their strategy. Why would I look to invest if I did not know the potential return? The view you have taken (rightly or wrongly) is no different to "My mate told me about a 10/1 shot running at Kempton, lump on it" – The bet might pay off but for me I would be more comfortable to sign up if I knew they had a set plan not just wing it with the best intentions. As Ric has pointed out he belives at some point phase 2 remove stock form RM will come at some point. This is the time I will be happy to sign up to OTM when dates are set. For me the lack of forward planning or even talk of it from the board was a factor why I have not signed up come 26.1.15
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When you started your business did you know for sure how successful you were going to be? I'm sure you had numerous projections, best and worse case, cash flow forecasts etc but you didn't know what the exact outcome would be, never mind the income! You didn't know exactly how long it would take to break even etc but that's the nature of business and part of being entrepreneurial. Success is about risk taking. The real risk to me is doing nothing. The portals will continue to charge us more for having the decency to supply them with content (how does that work! It's like a journalist having to pay a publisher to carry their articles) whilst also allowing the new breed of low cost online agents to essentially achieve national coverage for the same price I pay for one office. On top of that, Zoopla already allow private listings, so they're already biting the hand that feeds.
Unless we all take action, this will get progressively worse. You have to back your own future and, yes, that involves some risk but not as big a risk as the alternative.
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I do not disagree with anything you have written above you are right in the majority of it and I am glad you and others are taking the risk. I think OTM has done fantastically well getting to this point. Its just a shame more fence sitter like myself did not join at the start. Hopefully over the coming 12 months or so we can be persuaded to sign up
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My Agency dropped zoopla in October ahead of our move to OTM. In all honesty dropping zoopla had no impact on us at all. As for Rightmove our intention is to drop in the next 12 months all being well. Obviously that will all depend on the take up of OTM but I think as all the pictures of branded offices is showing, partner agents are getting full behind the change and in turn those looking for properties cant help but become aware of OTM and change their searching habits.
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It seems that agents are finally realising they never needed to be on both portals in the first place.
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The OTM business presentations to agents were flawed. What happens to the one portal rule to those dropping RM as they will have to make a supplementary decision to either keep Zoopla or Prime Location (two different portals I believe)? Looking forward to reading in February about letters from OTM to offending agents!
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Zoopla & Prime location are viewed as one portal, as PL is owned by Z. Agents dropping RM can continue using PL & Z.
However, I think PL will be completely shot once OTM launches. It's "prime London property" niche will be in tatters given that the majority of top end London agents are dropping it in favour of OTM. As such, from 26th Jan the majority of "top end" London property will be on RM & OTM.
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"Top end" London property are not on portals at all. Aspiring top end properties are on PL 😉
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Very good! Point conceded.
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Can we remind ourselves to keep calm and carry on. Can we let OTM actually launch, all agents have a vested interest in its success. Lets keep a perspective, when all of you opened your businesses, were you number 1 agent for market share in your first year…or indeed before you opened for business. It takes time, hard work and patience. Viral marketing will be key, ask all buyers/sellers registering to download the app or bookmark the page. Simples
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Great comment P-Daddy
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There are many very successful Agents who have proved that you don't need to be on two portals. OTM agents are salivating at the thought of dropping Rightmove within two to three years.
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If OTM proves to be the success I genuinely hope it will, I wouldn't even give RM that long.
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There is risk attached to dropping RM and even for Z to see a massive fall in market share. These two brands are really well known and ruthless, so what is to stop them becoming on-line agents to go for a big share of our fees instead of our small subscriptions? RM and Z will not just say thanks, pack up and walk away, they will rethink their strategy and return. My hope is RM will realise that they have overcharged their agent clients an thrown away loyalty in the process. If they restructured their pricing to become cheaper than OTM or Z and put their customers' needs ahead of the demands of their shareholders, I'd stick with RM all day long. While they are milking too much out of their cash-cow, I'll be looking forward to OTM becoming No.1. So, don't underestimate the risk of the rise of the phoenix. What do you think RM and Z will do if their market share drops dramatically? Walk away or fight back? And how might they fight back?
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Lance I agree, RM and Z next play will be an interesting one. Unfortuantley RM will not reduce fees no matter how tough it gets for them. They report to the city and as such need to show that not only do they maintain profits they increase them year on year. They would rather squeeze member agents further to make up the short fall than reduce fees. I expect that if OTM succeed and RM loses market share and their share price fall, Fees will go up astronomically to member agents, they will find new features to charge for, increase third party advertising, accepted direct to market listings. At he point it can no longer grow or share price dipped so far they will break the company up to different departments and look to sell it off or on as a whole to on the established American offerings.
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Gloss it up all you like, knock it down if you wish – Too many opinions on here from agents with ulterior motives attempting to protect their own little bubbles. The bottom line is many thousands of agents have already signed up to On The Market and the majority have dumped Zoopla. Sorry if that has affected your plummeting share prices. If some of you self proclaimed elitist agents had bothered taking up your invite to the OTM presentations you would be fully aware they have a three-five year plan to become the second largest portal. How refreshing it is to have an honest, realistic player in the market place who isn't motivated by arrogance and greed.
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There is risk attached to dropping RM and even for Z to see a massive fall in market share. These two brands are really well known and ruthless, so what is to stop them becoming on-line agents to go for a big share of our fees instead of our small subscriptions? RM and Z will not just say thanks, pack up and walk away, they will rethink their strategy and return. My hope is RM will realise that they have overcharged their agent clients an thrown away loyalty in the process. If they restructured their pricing to become cheaper than OTM or Z and put their customers' needs ahead of the demands of their shareholders, I'd stick with RM all day long. While they are milking too much out of their cash-cow, I'll be looking forward to OTM becoming No.1. So, don't underestimate the risk of the rise of the phoenix. What do you think RM and Z will do if their market share drops dramatically? Walk away or fight back? And how might they fight back?
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Lance- is not the implication of your post more abhorrent- that agents should freeze in fear? And if this is an issue today, it will only be more so in the future. The time is now.
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I don't think we should do anything other than pursue our strategies, but we should remain aware of this risk. Hopefully we agents might start working better together through OTM instead of being so against cooperation so we can build a better reputation for our long term survival.
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Hi Lance……. RM's business model is so good, they have made it hard to do anything different in my opinion!………Try and rewrite their business model from now (profit, staff, etc etc) to one where they are now either a) being a FSBO site, how much per month will you charge a seller…. or b) Online Agent, again what charge and on what basis?………They have shareholders to keep happy and to the tune they are keeping them happy now……. so RM need to ensure they keep the constant income stream alive at the level they do now……. and that will only happen if there is no other option for the agents to go to….if they announce or we see FSBO or any RM Agency plan 100% of agents will drop em! So they start from scratch and are no better than Tesco/Google/ebay etc etc
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Just had a quick look to see all the agents in Winchester and based on the agents listed above dropping Zoopla the amount of sales listings will be as follows;
Z 352
OTM 513
OTM will instantly be No2 portal.
This is of course not taking into account any other agents that have signed up to OTM that we don't know about. It should be worth noting that some of the agents not quoted on OTM have far less stock then those already on.
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Question, is there a bigger percentage that have decided not to sign up to AM, or sign up??? Let say top end from AM's suggestions they have signed 5,000 agents up, and there is give or take 20,000 agents in the UK. 25% = Yes AM… 75% = No AM. Of those 25%, some on RM, some Z. Of the 75%, likely the majority are on both. Don't over estimate how big AM will be, and how big the struggle and marketing cost to get anywhere close to no two.
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Firsty I doubt very much that there are 20,000 bona fine full service high street agents, more like 15,000. Secondly forget the number of agents, what's key is WHO has signed up and in many towns and cities they are the leading independents who have a huge amount of stock. In some areas already (as I have illustrated above) OTM is no 2 portal based on listings, Springetts plan is working to a tee. Those smaller independents/fence sitters will soon follow suit.
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BRILLIANT….I wondered when the discussions would start to go % crazy? All we need is a presentation from Peter Snow and his "swing o meter" to see us through to the 26th! …..Will OTM start as no 2 portal? Could Zoopla and Rightmove forma coalition to take majority power? Paul H and 1st time buyer will keep all updated on the stats YOU need to know!
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Hold on I though PeeBee was the statistician!!
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He is the unofficial chief researcher and archive expert for pie forum…You are doing a great job crunching the numbers. I think as more and more seem to be dropping Zoopla (all otm offices in our areas – which accounts for most of the stock in same ) it is becoming clear that OTM will kick off as the no 2 site, or not far off. That should finally put to rest the old chesnut that it is in the clients' interest to stay on Zoopla.
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"That should finally put to rest the old chesnut that it is in the clients' interest to stay on Zoopla."….I've got to say that i've never understood why people have tried to make the argument about number of agents that 1st time buyer and other have tried to put across, you can have all the bus adverts, tv ads and endorsements from Phil Spencer as you want, but it means nothing without the stock. On another note it appears that Z are no longer running the strapline of 8 out of 10 agents are on Zoopla!!
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One way we could all start to damage RM is to pull from all the ad-ons, that would seriously effect their income probably leading to a fall in their share price. It would also indicate a show of solidarity maybe giving us all the comfort that at some point soon we could wave goodbye to RM too.
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IstTimeBuyer, I would look more towards the number of property the AM members will be loading rather than the number of companies involved………………………. Obviously the more companies the better but the volume of stock will be the bit many have underestimated……. now you pick up on people guessing at the percentages and figures as we all are to some extent…… So as you have had a go at it above and if you were correct, I bet you will be surprised at what the 25% of agents give OTM by way of stock….. well over 50% I would GUESS at the minute…… only 12 days to go though, so lets chill until then…… and then we can add some real stats to the debate.
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The intersting but here is the one other portal bit. If , like you say, OTM kicks off as the number 2 portal in terms of stock it will become increasingly difficult to enforce the one other portal rule . It's actually illegal for a player in any marketplace no matter who it's owned by or it's rules to enforce anti-competitive terms .and by this I mean it's illegal. The end scenario is that it's drops this rule
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Danny, by that point Zoopla will be decimated, why would anyone need to advertise on it anyway?
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I hardly think they'll be decimated , if 4000 firms sign up that leaves 16000, even if the 4000 carry lots of stock it's hardly a submission hold. Point is that agents will advertise where they see they will get an advantage in the front room. That means some May end up paying for three portals ,exactly the reverse of what the stated aim is ..
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The "one other portal" rule couldn't be easier to police surely. To an extent I reckon most agents are honest and won't try getting round it anyway. For those that do, they will soon be caught out by competitors and the sanction is easy. A polite call / e-mail from the big boss along the lines of "Is that Mr Devious? It's come to light that you've broken the agreed "one other portal rule" despite previous polite warnings. As of tomorrow your properties won't appear on http://www.onthemarket.com. And by the way, you know the £3,000 per office you paid to set us up? We're hanging onto that as agreed as well. Have a good day."
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@Lance
Rm and Z will put out great consumer offers for using agents who use them. Behind RM and Z is a combination of corporates who wouldnt bring listings to OTM. RMand Z also have MANY vertical searches out there in established websites lowering their property searches. This would create mass seo back.
There may also be future consumer issues on portals under UK law as marketing of homes should be primarily in the vendor and landlords interest. Not commercially the agent or their portal/s. Above agents legislation would favour buyers and tenant applicants over agents and portals.
With gov reviews in estate agency statute under current consultation the one portal rule being commercial to OTM may not be seen as best consumer practice. CPRs and BPRs are there to protect public and create fair play. I'd like to see all portals come under rules that mean they cant invent commercial practice that could be seen as non supportive of UK gov statute.
The same way the monopolies commission stamped out groups of agents commission fixing years ago. The Competitions Authority and Trading Standards hould stopped cartels making rules outside CPR and BPR best consumer interest.
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nice to see a thought spin on it but this "Anti competitive" idea is so far off the mark. Vendors / Landlords have a choice to go with an agent that is OTM or RM & Z or whoever else, they can go with an online agent or high street agent, Independent or Corporate. If the government do say its "Anti competitive" (they wont by the way) all OTM has to do is say fine you can list with another portal free and after that every other portal costs you an extra £2000 per month on your membership. The only people that are complaining about this rule are people that are not allowed to sign up in the first place! If they are that bothered by it why not start up "Online agents mutual" and that way high street brands cannot advertise!
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@Smile I aim to please 🙂 ……. Even if CMA (Competitions) didnt stop and after all OTM isnt live for the public to search yet. Main legislation governing agents is CPRs and BPRs. What I can say is that for a fact I know one Trading Standards officer who would support a client moving a property away from their agent if the deal was tbat RM and Z was expected for the tie in period. If the consumer didnt know their agent was to pull the plug on one and retaining both was consumer wanted. Then this TS officer has said he would support the client walking from the agents tie in.
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I may be speaking on behalf of thousands on OTM members (and I am not even one) but if they did have a vendor that felt that they could not get the best price on their property and have been duped into signing a contract as they expected both RM and Z not one or the other along side OTM – then the agent will let them go without holding them to the contract. They will be so far a few between it would not matter, also do you want to work with people that don't want to work with you? I know I don't!
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@ Smile…… It wouldnt be the client breaking the contract. But the agent for withdrawing a important (to the client) part of their service.
In many ways a great opportunity for non AM agents to approach AM clients and take clients away offering both RM and Z
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Yes as a non AM member we are approaching all AM properties. We expect to pick up a few instructions (not hundreds) but second hand instructions are usually second hand for a reason, Still boost our market share I suppose!
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Smile where are you based? If you want more listings I have agents who offer theirs as subs for a sub comm on results. In some ares we give agents 100 plus listings. It also means an agent on one portal may link with an agent who does other portals. admin@inea.co.uk Trevor
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Market share is not a problem for us, we have plenty of instructions. Its just good practise to keep our stock growing when an opportunity like OTM comes up. As for the offer of "sub" commissions that for the opportunity of a £180 pm membership but I think I will pass on this occassion
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In all. The industry with budget models is a mess to traditional agency. RM and Z are both expensive and the whole DNA of estate agency and how listings are offered needs to change. Just creating A N Other portal alone isnt the answer. I hope for many that OTM does well, but others will fight their corners due to exclusion. My guess is that OTM runs for around 2 years then ends alike PropertyLive. BUT in that time it will have disrupted RM and Z in a way no other portal has done.
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For too long the duopoly have lingered like a f*rt that smells of hatred so giddy up launch day but dude, thinking OTM are lying back all spent, glowing and reaching for a Marlborough light [ok maybe on a break while Russ changes the brake pads on his mouth] is dumb. There’s work to do. Look, Zoopla’s pretty much on its knees and even a world of tickling whist down there might not change that but for RM its all temporary. OTM needs to be all it can be and I think they get that.
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