Knight Frank, one of the founding agencies behind Agents’ Mutual, is to drop Zoopla when OnTheMarket launches on January 26.
Under the “one other portal” rule, most agents are effectively having to choose between the existing big two.
Knight Frank’s announcement follows a similar announcement by Spicerhaart, and was welcomed by Rightmove.
A spokesperson for Rightmove said: “We are pleased to confirm that Knight Frank will be advertising on Rightmove well into 2016.
“We look forward to continuing to work closely with Knight Frank and assisting in the promotion of its marketing objectives.”
Noel Flint, partner at Knight Frank, said: “Knight Frank has decided to continue utilising Rightmove in addition to OnTheMarket, the new property portal, which launches at the end of January.
“After consideration of the data available to us, we noted that Rightmove generates considerably more referrals to our website than its sole rival in the existing market, Zoopla.
“Feedback from our agents across the country also confirmed that Rightmove was the best choice available to us at this time and, most importantly, the best decision for our clients.
“The launch of OnTheMarket.com in the New Year is a significant step for the property market as the creation of a new portal will offer consumers more choice and challenge the existing duopoly.
“It is our belief that a property portal operated on a not-for-profit basis and existing purely to promote the properties from the best estate agencies can only benefit sellers and landlords while also offering the best entry point to the market.”
City analyst William Packer, of Exane BNP Paribas, said this morning: “A key London agent leaving Zoopla suggests the PrimeLocation dynamic may be less important than some Zoopla bulls have argued.”
I wonder if Rightmove will buy up Zoopla?
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Why waste their money just wait for them to fade away.
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Undercover Agent, that is an interesting post. What do you think would be the benefit of Rightmove buying Zoopla? I can think of a single scenario that would motivate RM to buy Zoopla but they would be up against competition that have more money available to them than RM and less regard for Estate Agents than RM (get your head around that if you’ve nothing better to do)
If you know and understand that scenario, have chat with Ros, it would be a great story and one likely to invigorate interest in AM.
Mud Plugger- sometimes businesses are bought for stupid amounts of money just to stop the competition getting their hands on the strategic advantage of a seemingly duff or ailing company.
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Any merger would see share prices rise and being as both are listed companies very real possibility
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They will never buy Zoopla, that would just give Position 2 to OTM.
Then there would only be 2 major portals again and this is what you all complained of in the first place
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Or Zoopla could buy Agents' Mutual. Many agents are still bitter about Primelocation 1 being sold. Can you see agents turning down a massive windfall, so that they can save a few hundred quid a month? Money talks.
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You really just don't get it do you?
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Wow! I wasn't expecting that!
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I wonder what RM did for KF by way of "if you stay…………………"
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Much reduced rates, free products etc me thinks!
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Fair play to them I tried as hard as possible and did not receive a single benefit
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I don't think there's much to read into here. Rightmove has far greater traffic and therefore is far better value. KF still need to operate while OTM gets a foothold and slowly builds traffic. Zoopla took 7 years and multiple acquisitions to build half the traffic and revenue of Rightmove.
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Very little point in that. AM will diminish Zoopla's market share, but with RM still having over 80% it's able to just sit back and watch those two squabble, without being affected at all.
It is in a very enviable position right now and shouldn't do anything to disrupt the public slanging match that is going to happen (and is already happening) between Zoopla and AM over the next 6 months.
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And a large part of that 80% is made up of 'committed ' OTM agents. If you don't kick Rightmove, they aint gonna limp. KF and the other founder members could have sent a message to Rightmove and others may have followed, but instead the juggernaut that is Rightmove just keeps on rolling.
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It looks like RM will be relaxed, but in reality they are watching a "no hope" idea potentially catapult to the number 2 spot and managing to get agents who weren't even on Z on board….. RM will (in my opinion) be fully aware if OTM becomes a STRONG number 2 and fence sitters think yep why not….. the reality of dropping RM for every OTM agent in a mass vote will become quite exciting….. its all about the strong number 2 spot first! Always was!
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I hope you are right but surely the 'one other portal' rule was meant to weaken both R and Z, but it appears R has been strengthened by it. It will be great if OTM becomes No 2 but not if R is that far ahead they cant even see it and have no chance of getting anywhere near it.
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I think it would be silly of Agents' Mutual to hand all the (pricing) power to Rightmove. I would hope there's a twist in this tale, with the likes of Savills and KFH announcing loyalty to Primelocation/Zoopla. Ian Springett's pitch was always to split inventory. He's a smart guy, I'm sure there's more to come.
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Christmas comes early for Rightmove – they must be rubbing their hands with glee!
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Did anyone really expect any different though? They are a business. They aren't going to drop the company that provides a massive amount of their leads.
This whole scenario is a classic case of people's hearts saying one thing but their head is saying another. Everyone WANTS to drop RM but no one can afford to.
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You'd put money on that would you? RM told me they were expecting to lose "between 1% and 2% of the agents". I reckon they're in for a soddin shock.
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Am's raison d'entre is to help relax the grip that the nasty portal has on agents. I never hear much in the way of complaints from agents about Zooplas' fees or treatment of it's customers, only RM's.
Doesn't much look like it does what it says on the tin… maybe the opposite in fact.
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The other gripe is online agents allowing Private Sale listings onto Rightmove and Zoopla. And by the way, it's the online agents who pay extortionate costs to the portals. Most agencies pay less than £600 a month to Rightmove, which in the grand scheme of things isn't much for such reliable advertising. It's the endless price rises that scare the industry. We've seen our RM subs go from £300 to £600 in 4 years.
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And that's for lettings only.
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Well into 2016 with Rightmove for KF?…. so KF signed with RM for circa 18 months and in contrast…. 5 Years with Agents Mutual….. so, the door remains firmly Open!….. that's what I see. Door closed on Zoopla and only circa 18months with RM. Plenty of fun n' games to come and RM will have Zero interest in acquiring Zoopla. Welcome aboard Agents Mutual 26/01/2016…. the Portal Market change is already underway!…. and I don't think for 1 minute that Rightmove think it's over and Zoopla will be the only casualty…. if Rightmove do?…. they would be deluded, however they don't…. anyone staying with Rightmove that doesn't hammer down their monthly fees are throwing money away…. Rightmove have already starting dealing on fees! Now….. let's enjoy the rise of OnTheMarket.com….. it's why I signed up on Day 1 for 5 FIVE Years!…… I'm in for the long haul….NOT just 18 months!
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Well if you don't hammer Rightmove down by at least 250 quid a month, it might be you that's thrown your money away!
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Many agents, including me, have been given excellent deals to stay with RM…..opposed to increases year on year for 5 years offered by Zoopla. Perhaps if Zoopla had offered a competitive rate more agents would have stayed with them. As for those that are staying with Zoopla and Rightmove………well they are BOTH coming after you to raise their rates!
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Competitive, for example perhaps on average half the rate of Rightmove? Did I not read they already do that?
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If you are saying that they perform identically then, in my view, you are totally wrong. It would seem that 4,000 other branches agree as well and will be leaving them. Rightmove offered a c40% decrease in fees. If zoopla had said that they would have done a similar decrease (down to approx. £150 per branch per month) then I ,and maybe many others, would have considered Zoopla the best value for money and dumped RM. With the increases quoted by z over a 5 year period it did not make commercial sense, for us anyhow.
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wilco, any facts and figures that might assist your fellow agents in their negotiations with RM, because all i've heard in my area (South Wales) is that RM don't negotiate!
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It depends on so many things(add ons,when membership started etc). All I can say is that our deal offered was approx. 40% less than we were paying. We are multi branch and I believe that those national brands will have done even better deals as well with RM. I too have heard that local 1 branch agencies have found it more difficult to re negotiate with RM but as has been said on this forum before (and was proved by the recent survey) that RM do not have transparent rate cards for all their clients.
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Well after months of trying to decide myself what to do I have decided to renew my contract with Z for another 6 months. (They offered a fantastic deal!) – Reason for this are 1. significantly cheaper than Z 2. They are established and I think businesswise in the first 6 months of 2015 I will have more valuation leads from Z as OTM get established. 3. In 6 months I can revisit the proposal for OTM and see public awareness.
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Cheaper than Zoopla? I see this a lot and still can't quite believe it. We pay Zoopla around £250 + VAT. Our Rightmove rep wanted £900 + VAT for the same setup (one office, sales and lettings).
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Sorry my mistake hastate in typing should have been "Significantly cheaper than OTM"
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Has it not occurred to you that if everybody took your approach OTM wouldn't even get off the ground. Agent's need to commit to their future, not sit on the fence. Grow a pair!
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I have many other reservations not to join OTM. I have "A pair" every other independent agent is ditching Z so i think a pretty brave move. But if you want to list on a website you have not seen a live demo on or a back office system and they are already sneaking in extra charges go ahead! – That's the best thing owning your own business (assuming you are an owner not an employee) you get to chose what you feel is right and you believe in. At this moment in time i don't think OTM is right for me and i do not believe in them. Time may change that ….. but maybe not!
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This was always going to happen. Why would an agent choose a number 2 over the 'better product'? On one hand it makes sense to push Zoopla out as it means OTM arrives in as a solid number 2 ready to battle with Rightmove later on. On the other hand OTM was created because agents were sick and tired of paying the stupid monthly fees (more so of RM) every month. Funny thing is if every single agent said "Right, no more Z or RM, we are just going to advertise on OTM" then nothing would change from a business point of view as people would simply make the switch over to where all the properties were now being listed. We went to the OTM meeting yesterday and whole thing looks fantastic including the new website. When an idea can bring together 200 odd agents under one roof and everyone be so passionate of the new venture (when normally these agents would be trying to do each other over) it certainly shows how fed up agents are with the current situation. On a different note, at the meeting we went too there was a vote of hands to show who was leaving which portal. Not a single person raised their hands when asked if they were leaving RM. It was both rather comical and disappointing at the same time.
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Im sure when not a single hand was raised, a few shudders went down a few spines as reality set in.
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I'll point out that it wasn't AM that asked for the show of hands.. It was one of the agents who attended who suggested it and no names, etc were mentioned
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So the only saving grace for OTM will be to build an audience that generates 'qualified' buyer leads, prompting members to ditch both RM and Zoopla?
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Essentially. If OTM had 100% of the listings then it would become number 1, rather quickly too. It's a chicken and egg thing (as I mentioned in a comment later on) because if OTM had 100% of the listings the business it generated would be RM and Z combined. However nobody wants to sign up solely to OTM (not even the founders!) because they are worried about loosing out on current leads from RM or Z.
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Crazy! – the whole idea about launching OnTheMarket was for agents to take back control of the portals and do something about the outrageous charges. All we are now doing is swopping from paying Zoopla to now paying OnTheMarket. If Knight Frank, Savills et al drop Zoopla it means that everyone else will follow suit and nothing will change.
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And OTM is more expensive than Z with less public awareness.
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The cost really isn't a big deal. It's the fact of retaining control, and reducing the ability of online agents. That's what AM is about. There's more to come. There has to be. Giving Rightmove all the power can't be the result of the AM movement.
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Rayhan, that maybe what AM is to you but not to all. I have said earlier in the post I have committed to a further 6 months of Z and will remain with RM. In 6 – 12 months I expect to drop Z and be with AM – However I still cant see how we get control back from RM too big, too much power, agents are afraid to drop them and there will always be a handful of agents in a town that will stay on RM and make it viable (the larger ones with a bigger budget) this effectively bullies smaller agents to stay with RM
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Surely the idea is to ditch Rightmove as their prices are robbery, what's the point in AM it sounds like everyone is just swapping Zoopla for AM and keeping RM. Stupid, also paying more to AM then the fees to Z.
Everyone should keep Z and AM in my opinion and stop their membership to Rightmove, or is everyone scared that Rightmove will take private listings?
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This is where you're making an emotional decision Trevor instead of a commercial decision. The reason people aren't dropping RM is because in the majority of cases they supply more leads than Zoopla both on a volume basis but also on a cost per lead basis.
Whilst RM's fees per office may seem high, in most instances they will be generating the majority of your leads, and you will not get anywhere near the same number of responses from spending your money elsewhere.
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And from a commercial standpoint, surely you're supporting Agents' Mutual to stop the annual Rightmove price rise? All AM agents ditching Zoopla, will embolden Rightmove as the sole source of reliable buyer leads…
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Like @James Morris I too was at an OTM meeting this week which was massively attended. We weren't asked the question about who was dropping who but I agree the new website and TV ad 'teaser' look impressive. My own view is that the vast majority of OTM members/fence-sitters will initially favour RM over Z (we're all in business after all) but will eventually decide to drop RM if/when OTM gains sufficient traction. In the meantime we can all weaken RM by re-negotiating our fees. Less than 2 months to do this though!
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We saw the ad teaser and site…..I thought it was brilliant. I think it will have a massive impact, straight away…..ant the prime time TV ad slots were very impressive.
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The whole event was great (apart from the featured listings which caused uproar at our event) but overall there was a positive buzz about the whole thing. Website really does look good, simple, quick and functional.
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No one wants to pay for featured listings do they and why would we need to if we invest our time and effort in marketing the portal to make it a success.
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That's the point that was raised. Not a single agent in our meeting was happy with the featured listings and it was generally believed that the whole point of OTM would be to create a level playing field where agents couldn't "out buy" others. However our rep said that over the numerous meetings they had done the split was 50/50 and speaking to agents who had been to other meetings they pretty much confirm that. Still, IMO, they shouldn't be there but if the majority want it then so be it.
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If you, me, all your friends (even those on facebook) and all AM members make OTM a success then why will anyone pay for 'auctioned' featured listings?! They won't need to will they.
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Got to say, similar at most meetings, I hear. No one wants featured listings/featured agents but OTM was never launched to give agents a "level playing field" and it has to run commercially to the benefit of the mutual. For me I'd rather have paid a few quid extra per month and had the featured prop/agent included on a rota with other members.
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"Got to say, similar at most meetings, I hear. No one wants featured listings/featured agents…"
Well… not according to OUR local AM Rep, wilko – and it's you Suvverners that's crying out for it, apparently!
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@pee bee….I haven't met one member that really wants them from all the meetings I've been to but I'm also not naïve enough to realise that the reps are "selling the product" which is what they have to do-they may have demand for them from some quarters or they may not. It is not a relevant issue until they bring it in (if they indeed do) And I guess it will be looked at by the membership at that point. Have to say pee bee, aside from all the discussions and points of view, the site really looks great.
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Be honest with yourself. You have a website. Gaining consumer traffic just takes time. No amount of TV adverts will speed things up. Because that traffic will 'bounce' off the site. It takes time for people to trust a new brand/destination. Isn't that why a high street agent has an advantage? Familiarity.
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The long term goal is to knock out both RM and Z. It makes obvious sense that the weaker business is taken out first, then OTM can move on to OTM. Many people I spoke with at the launch this week are also stripping back their RM listings to just basic listings so don't expect RM to be massive winners early on as some are predicting.
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Typo: Meant then OTM can move on to RM!
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Funny thing is one agent said they had asked RM to strip back their account to basic listings and it was actually going to cost them £200 more a month! Lets face it, most agents who list on RM do so because it's a purely reactive response. When all you hear from clients is "oh so and so is on RM, are you?" your expected to say yes otherwise the business goes elsewhere. OTM is a proactive movement and it's time for change.
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If we as agents are only doing something because our competitors are doing it, then the stack of cards will start collapsing when your competitor decides he's not going to do it any more ie the dam will burst as soon as someone has the balls to burn his comfort blanket.
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"Rightmove was the best choice available to us at this time and, most importantly, the best decision for our clients". What a joke! The best decision for there clients is to stay with both Rightmove and Zoopla.
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"What a joke! The best decision for there clients is to stay with both Rightmove and Zoopla." I've got an idea, why not let the good British public decide what is in their best interests. Agents will come round to value, outline how they market, where they market as well as sell their business and themselves, the customer can then make their decision. I find that in the whole the Great British public are smarter than the average bear.
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"The great british public are smarter than the average bear" … yet you expect them to swallow a reduced portal choice for the same fee ? And before you say "ill be offering them on the market yada yada " ill just deal with the facts. My 5 year son has a blog about his bearded dragon that currently has more eyeballs than on the market does… that's fact
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Morning Danny, I sense a bit of frustration in your posts today, reality sinking in perhaps. Good luck on the 'sinking ship' Zoopla, I hope it works out for you.
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Thanks Yoda… the force is strong within you ! Your right about the frustration. Ive been reading this and the "other" site for years , comments about id love to come off rightmove , they charge us too much, there taking the p*ss etc etc . Push comes to shove the message AM agents are sending them is pretty much do what you want. Even when we try organise ourselves and form another portal we still wont come off !! You can dress it up any which way but my concern is my Rightmove bills will go up with no strong second place player to keep a reign on it. And before you say OTM ,they wont be a strong second place player because if Z have 40% of the stock , OTM have 60% say , RM have 100% …why on earth would anyone go anywhere else …. the danger is we are pushed back into a monopoly
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That might be because OTM isn't live yet? What people seem to forget again and again is there is no point spending money on advertising if there is NOTHING to advertise. When the site goes live, so will the advertising. Up until that point it's down to the member agents to spread the word as best they can. Also even if agents are listing on RM or Z as their "other choice" the general consensus is that agents will be listing their properties 48 hours early onto OTM compared to the competing portals. So yes both portals may have the property but to see it before anyone else does you'll have to use OTM. Perhaps if you were a member you would of known this.
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Public will go to where the properties are, simple as that.
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The acceptance of the digital age means that things can change very quickly, with the click of a button. After the launch of OTM, there will be few who will not have heard of it and who is going to ignore it? If you are buying or selling, a short cut will be going on your desktop. The more ‘unique’ listings there are on it, the more often that will be used and it is up to us to educate our Clients now, on how important and effective it will be.
If we all decided on Rightmove, they would have all of our properties (OTM members that is) plus those of the uncommitted Independent Agents, plus all the Corporate firm’s properties, plus those of the Internet only and Hybrid Agents. Therefore, considerably more than there would be on OTM. What incentive would the public have other than to continue using RM, as their Portal of choice. It is highly unlikely, therefore, that Agents receiving, what would be a considerable response from RM, would wish to divest themselves of it, further down the line. Independent Agents as a group are a powerful force and really can make or break the Portals in a local area.
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"The more ‘unique’ listings there are on it, the more often that will be used"
In my opinion this is, and always has, been a major factor. With most agents on OTM listing new instructions on OTM exclusively (for a period of time before opening it up to another portal) under the specialist "unique listings" the buying public will flock to the site to not miss out on circa 800,000 new listings p/a that can't be seen elsewhere!
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I love a post that starts the acceptance of the digital age !! I was invited to a meeting where the local agents suggested that we come off Zoopla and some also suggested Rightmove and we all took out some newspaper advertising to promote the fact that OTM is the future. More newspaper advertising …at a greater cost than the portal they wanted to drop. You can wrap this up any which way you want, it a bad move for the industry and im worried that its driving us straight back down monopoly avenue
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That's True Wilko, will also help with the Google rankings and SEO as seen as quality unique information (this is why I list on my website first)
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In my view the next move will be the OnTheMarket.com agents leaving Rightmove geographically… I have meetings planned with a view to leaving collectively from RM over a set geographical area… I would be surprised if fellow estate agents cannot collectively agree on this strategy and instead opt to continue to be sold more & more products by the RM Rep. In an instant it is a level playing field by withdrawing collectively or in a majority as it demonstrates that agents no longer see RM as the effective portal…. and it seems we are seeing that with Zoopla. I've got work to do in my area with my fellow agents however I'm prepared to sit down and discuss openly the elephant portal in the room issue which is Rightmove…. the sooner Rightmove is jettisoned the sooner we can get UK Estate Agency back on track in terms of realigning the portal business that is a an Online Shop Window for UK Estate Agents rather than a business that UK Estate Agents blindly work for! It is a Monumental Achievment to have got to this stage where 1 major portal is going to be diminished to such an extent…. however UK Estate Agents…. unless they wish to continue to freely work for and prop up Rightmove….. should see this clearly as a sign of what UK Estate Agents can actually agree on when it is clearly in the best interests of the UK Property Market. Mid to Long Term we should see OnTheMarket.com representing the UK Property Market…. after all that is what online portals were established for, or purported to be….. it's just we lost sight of what a website was…. an Online Shop Window…. not the Magical Mysterious Portal Nonsense built & sold by Rightmove & Zoopla…. noting the huge unseen influence behind these from the UK Corporate Estate Agents who had a vested interest in controlling the whole portals show! Despite all of the aforementioned it is amazing to think that UK Estate Agents actually woke up and have elected to make a real change that will benefit the UK Property Market! I don't underestimate the deafening silence of Rightmove…. let's not be foolish enough to miss their deafening silence…. they are the Invisible Elephant in the Room that no UK Estate Agent should forget about…. consider how much more focussed our business will be for agebt and public when Rightmove are Removed! Every single time you look at one of your Rightmove listings just look and see the extra advertising that is unrelated or competes with YOUR business, look at them promoting other services, fellow agents etc etc….. and remember this….. every single time the Rep visits you he/she has a razor sharp financial knife in their briefcase that is looking to carve another slice from you….. with the underlying pitch that they are helping you and your business….. then after you have signed up they trot off up the road to your fellow agent and play the same record! Agents Mutual isn't here to shaft you, carve you up…. and then move on to the next agent….. it is there to simply provide you with an effective Online Shop Window….. the rest is up to you….. go out and compete with your skills, your service, your experience, your fee package etc…. isn't that actually what estate agency is about…… not the digital statistics online portal magic mystery world of Rightmove & Zoopla!….. it's the world that you enter when you unlock the door of your office every day! Part 1 – OnTheMarket.com 26/01/2015 Part 2 – to follow!
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I have meetings planned with a view to leaving collectively from RM over a set geographical area… I would be surprised if fellow estate agents cannot collectively agree on this strategy …… In an instant it is a level playing field by withdrawing collectively or in a majority….. have you read the monopolies and mergers act ? Your suggesting colluding with others in your geographical area to remove barriers to compete , this is possibly illegal
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Sadly you could try and try but there will always be one agent to say yes sure, we will leave and then come crunch time they don't for whatever reason and your back to square one.
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GPL – I like your thinking but probably too hard to execute if agents round your way are like mine! – What could help up speed up the process that for two days a week or month every RM member turns their listings to invisible and help boost OTM ……. That could be interesting!
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Deck chairs on the Titanic, Zoopla an Rightmove arguing over who drowns first!!
for the record, i pulled out of zoopla in may, it never made any difference to our business. Tony@khp.me kings hill properties, kent
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In a perfect world Knight Frank should of said.. We believe in OTM and are dropping both Z and RM. We urge all other agents of OTM to do the same thing. If the core "founding" agents all did that then think of the news storm it would create.
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These larger companies are generally dropping the portal that generates least for them they have a business to run. No business would drop their best portal no matter what the cost. It just doesn't make business sense to stick with Z (in this case) and good luck to them
They can afford to back the new portal but lots of smaller independent EA's cannot afford the loss in business this MIGHT generate. In December the last thing I can spend is time worrying if OTM will make me money. I'm a small business and I'm sticking with what makes me money.
Can I just point out that most of the people want to drop RM but can't because it is the best performer out there for most of us.
When you look Generated Income Vs Cost then you all see RM is good value for money (for most). It generally brings in more income than it costs, if it brought in less then noone would even be signed up to RM.
If fair enough we all want to pay less for a service but it's not just the leads that we pay for, its the exposure too. All visitors to RM (more than the other portals) see our properties and our business names there. Fair enough if someone can charge less and give promises but at the moment there seems to be only 2 companies delivering the promises
I don't want to sign up to a company with a plan to be huge in the next 5 years, I want the best company for me now and that is RM and Z.
I MAY eat my words in a little over a months time but I cannot see a reason to leave yet and it will take some convincing. When OTM can show me in figures and facts and market data that show me I would be better off, until then I will keep these 2.
I'm not going to leave the big 2 just yet but I look forward to your posts in Jan to see what happens and maybe later on next year I will see OTM as worth the money. The incentives to long term signing up to OTM are just not there at the moment.
P.S. I can see a lot of hate for RM reps on here, everyone hates Reps no matter who they work for!!! They have a job to do just like all of us. Estate Agents are sometimes seen as a necessary evil some are better than others, reps are also a necessary evil they have a job to do just like us!!!!!
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That's the thing. If they dropped both portals and everyone used OTM, it would be their best portal and the leads/income wouldn't change. We could go around in circles with this and it's the chicken and egg mentality. Personally, as much as I hope OTM succeeds, I'd love to see property portals banned completely. The typical agents model for years has been "we will sell your property because it is on the portals" when it should of always been "we will sell your property because we are a good estate agents".
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Thumbs up James, Unfortunately I've not got the financial security to look at this long term and there are too many like me out there.
But would that be better? a Monopoly? But who's to say that AM wouldn't abuse that control.
Either way I think having 3 big portals is going to work for us all. Portals get cheaper and more exposure for EA as a whole!
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OTM has a a group of board members who are voted in by the members. Each agency, no matter how big or small only has one vote. If the members do not like the direction the company takes then we can vote new board members in and change that. Part of the appeal of OTM is that if after a number of years there is x amount of money sitting in the kitty, we the members can choose where to use it best. Whether that is as a membership fee reduction or a bigger advertising campaign, the members have the choice. That's the theory anyway, whether it actually happens that way we can only hope. We are a one branch independent who deals with both sales and lettings. Like you we do not have the finances to simply throw money away and have for years refused to become a sheep with Rightmove because of their silly fees. You may call us silly or stupid for not jumping on the bandwagon with RM but we are still around today and competing with the 'big boys' in the town.
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I would never call you silly or stupid, if you can get the business through without RM then you actually have done really well and an even bigger Thumbs up.
We're only 18 months old so we are getting there but I actually wouldn't be here without RM they have supplied lots of leads and got us off to a good start. OTM have just come round at the wrong time.
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Another consideration that agents will have when deciding who to drop is that the likes of Countrywide and Arun (to name but 2) have loads of shares in Zoopla. By coming off Zoopla agents are also, indirectly, losing their large competitors a sizeable amount of revenue. Remember Countrywide pulled out of RM to openly back dpg with a lot of cash.
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Zoopla shares down 4.5% thus far today Wilko! what will they look like around Feb 1st?!
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£1.30 to £1.45 is my guess/prediction. They may, of course counter with their intentions/plans to reclaim their shortfall.
Zoopla expect to lose around 4000-4500 branches but have said, already, they have plans to get the lost revenue back….I'm not sure what those plans could entail but some will say private listings….well if they did then surely that would lead 1000s of fence sitters straight down on the OTM site…..other than that we know they plan to increase their membership fees to those agents that stay with them and even more for those who are online only agents.
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It's over for Zoopla as far as I can see Wilko. Most analysts and commentators predicted less agents would be coming off Z then what now looks likely. They either raise fees from a smaller agent pool (who they are currently fighting to keep) or go the private listing route, either of those options lead to armageddon as far as I'm concerned. I really cannot see a way back for them now.
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I've racked my brains to think what I would do if I were in charge at Z…….some very difficult decisions to be made by them in the coming months.
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I think Z will go down private listing route but not for some time (at least 12 – 18 months anyhow) I think the first thing they will do is adverts all over the page like the other horrid property site – MASS money in that!
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sorry *Horrid property NEWS site*
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Alrighty then, that funky smell is Zoopla taking a panic dump whilst they work out if sexual favours are the way to go. [Ok I see it now, dam you comment of the week criterion] So AM’s on a tear and RM’s slip streaming the h*ll out of it but they might want to stick a pin in that frenemies euphoria because AM still plan’s to inherit the earth buddy. No doubt RM’s sweeping their dignity off the floor having to harbinger AM but a groundswell of disenfranchised agents butting heads with their factual arsonists was never going to end well. Dude rehab’s for quitters so colour me high because I’ve got to figure if we build it they will come so listen, I might be paying for an ex wife with a face that could break the Internet and a house we once shared and sure, I might not be allowed in either one of them anymore but nothings changed – I’m still stoked about launch day.
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I just pasted that post into Google translate; "I am programmed to recognise dozens of languages from around the world please give me a clue. If you are working on the complete works of Shakespear please add more monkies"
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Another classic from the modern day John Cooper Clarke of the Estate Agency World.
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In one of my posts I suggested that the real motivation for OTM is the desire of the elite agents to protect their turf at the expense of their non elite brethren. I think the auctioning of prime advertising slots, even the suggestion of it, gives credence to this analysis.
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Certainly worth thinking about!
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Apparently at every single launch meeting (and there was over 30) questions were asked to the AM reps about the featured advertising including cost & how it would work etc and the reps apparently knew nothing about the detail, nothing at all.
Baring in mind they are sales people you would have thought that they would have this basic information wouldn't you.
Who ever heard of selling advertising by way of an auction.seriously?
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I was aware of it a couple a week or so back as I asked the questions on bolt ons when I enquired re the bronze option when mentioned on eye – I was not invited to latest round of meetings as I have not signed up.
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Smile please, before working in agency I worked in publishing and media sales for 10 years, lots of funny stories I can tell you. There were times when we didn't want an agent/company to advertise a certain feature so we asked them to take part in an auction for a certain competition, feature or edition, funnily enough no one ever entered. Funny that.
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Not quite sure I grasp the meaning of your comment Paul, are you saying they have this feature to discourage agents such as me signing up or that you feel nobody will "Bid" for these advertising spots? or something completely different???
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Selling advertising by auction , hmmm let me have a think , ant larger companies doing that .. I'll just tap it into google see what it throws out, oh what are these sponsored link things
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Your post seems to suggest some sort of claim on the notion. Dig in the EAT archive and you will find post after post where exactly that was discussed long before you turned up there (let alone here)
AM is a for profit company so like RM , Zoopla and all the other for profit portals your analysis is more of a given. I seem to recall George Orwell being paraphrased in one post (not yours) "All Agents will be equal only some will be more equal than others"
This "whole load of added extras/premium services" thing came as a bit of a shocker to one meeting, so much so that one old stager was reduced to 'language Timothy!' If you want to post an original thought Simon how about waiting a few days, let this thread fall off the bottom and then post something like.
"Oh Dear, is that what all the fuss is about? Good luck to the project (insert a snipe/ a touch of know it all to make it sound like one of yours)….. It would have been more sensible to play the mutual card for a bit longer, signed up the fence sitters and then introduced the premium money grabbing services that make RM and Zoopla so profitable"…… Oh sorry you can't do that your "Press" joker got burnt when you started slagging off AM/OTM/Ian Springett /any AM agent so publicly, now neither you or Nat can schmooze your way into a preview to see the gastric band version of RM.
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Precisely Benay. Why not rope in more mutual agents first before going in for the kill. Springett is not stupid.
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I never claimed originality but I presented a case, ok I got criticised, not unforseeable, even by me! Anyway, we want all you Uber posters back on our side, no need to dessert your Ros, just come back and see us sometime
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What are you saying there Benay? Besides having another pop at Mr Shinerock are you expressing some disappointment at what you've seen at the preview?
Like Simon I won't get to see OTM for another 44 days so coming from a Penn and Teller level smoke and mirrors industry I would be interested to know if the preview shows are being demonstrated live or are Powerpoint screen grab- "when we click here" show.
Paul H/ Wilko all of the other Gold and Silver investors- I AM NOT HAVING A POP AT AM OR OTM but it is important beyond any doubt or question that you are being shown at least some live operation. I say that because I have been selling services to you for 20 years and with very few exceptions can say that as an industry you are far too trusting of what is being demonstrated. It is easy in the controlled circumstances of a demonstration or PowerPoint to give the impression that all is well, tested and working. Often that is not the case. Despite being a mutual group, all with a stake in the project, you need to make sure what you are being told/shown is correct. ( that is not a suggestion that anything is wrong, simply a comment- as Squiiz found out post launch is too late to put things right) I have kept quiet on the subject of OTM when it became apparent that discussion on the subject was considered agenda ridden. Those that know me will know the only agenda I have is to look after those that have provided me with mutual respect, loyalty and a living for a very long time.
Flame suit on, press submit!
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I believe we were all shown the same video presentation and on it was a demonstration showing how the site works and it's search functionalties etc. Re the SEO issue with Squiiz, it was also mentioned when the SEO/google listings etc will come live. I don't think anyone (agent and consumer) will be upset with the end product come launch Robert.
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Paul, you have a stake in OTM and definitely a passion to see it succeed. Push yourself forward to be one of those with a curious mind who asks to see the thing in beta testing in a controlled environment. Software and service suppliers have mockup tools that can appear to show a working system. Even within AM there ought to be beta test sites- you would be a good site to test functionality independant of those who are writing code.
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To Smile please…"Not quite sure I grasp the meaning of your comment Paul, are you saying they have this feature to discourage agents such as me signing up or that you feel nobody will "Bid" for these advertising spots? or something completely different???"I'm saying there were a lot of un happy people at (apparently) every single meeting who left not wanting this feature. No one wants it. On 5000 agents at launch turnover is projected to be £21m OTM will need to spend £1m's on advertising unless OTM agents get fully on board this project, push OTM and mot RM/Z etc etc. To answer your question, will you want to pay for featured listings, like many currently pay to Rightmove??
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Also to say that everyone at the launch meetings were shown HOW to make the portal a success and it wasn't by 'featured properties' If agents do not take the advice on board then it is only us who is to blame.
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Me personally? no I don't want to pay. But I do! – Problem is every agent in a competitive area will always look for an advantage to obtain further Vals / MA's – This inturn means others follow. I have banners, premium listing, featured agents i only do this as my competition does. If they stopped so would I, but one agent will always try to gain that advantage. For me its all in or all out. I think this will be the same for many agents with OTM some agents (most likely to include the founders) will push for the advertising (they of course help develop the business through consultation). You will then find others follow as they do not want to be left behind. If you have a Knight Frank and Savills in your patch with big banner displays and they get an increase in market share you will likely follow (you may not but others will).
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Smile please, it costs roughly £35m to run a portal on the scale of RM & Z, possibly £30m especially if there is only OTM. Why will anyone pay for featured listings if OTM is in surplus/covering it's £30m costs?! It wasn't created for that reason.
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For you that statement is correct but not for others, some will be looking for an advantage over others and so on and so forth. It may not have initially be created for that reason (maybe it was) but does not stop the portal evolving. If the founding members truly did not want this option it would not be there. They will be the first to use that "option" and others will follow, unfortunately that's just the nature of the beast
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Neither Knight Frank or the founders of OTM have any major need of portals. I have not read a single comment that mentions Primelocation, the portal that they really hate having to pay for. I have, however, seen comments referring to OTM as "elite agents".
Doesn't the quote below sum up what OTM is all about?
“It is our belief that a property portal operated on a not-for-profit basis and existing purely to promote the properties from the best estate agencies can only benefit sellers and landlords while also offering the best entry point to the market.”
Note the use of "best estate agencies". This was always the motivation of the founders of OTM who did not even want to talk to NFoPP or gain their endorsement in the early days. Do you think the likes of Knight Frank and Savills want the little fishes muddying their pond?
OTM has always been about the "elite agencies" and their hangers on getting rid of Primelocation and controlling the new Primelocation, namely ConTheMarket. How long before the little fishes are moved to one side or priced out themselves because the OTM rates are not exactly cheap.
This is pure protectionism in the form of a cartel. How is a business that stops the consumer seeing the whole of the market, and dictates to its consumer clients where they can and cannot advertise their properties, working to "only benefit sellers and landlords". How is this ever going to be the new dawn of the portal sector?
The contradictions have always been there, so why not some honesty? When a business, selling itself as a mutual, advertises in its pre-launch briefings the fact that if enough of the members vote for a sale, then they can sell the business, well lets face it, it isn't a mutual, nor was it ever going to be.
So in the interest of honesty, lets start treating OTM for what it is, and allow an alternative point of view in the property press. OTM is a land grab by the "elite agents", wrapped up as a mutual, but really just another commercial venture with investors and founders who are not doing it out the kindness of their hearts.
They have an exit strategy like all commercial ventures and they will ConTheMarket when the time is right, just like the original founders of Primelocation did.
Now let me think, who were the founders of the original Primelocation?
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Really, you see all that? Think you are looking a bit too deep into it. And OTM's fees are relatively cheap compared to Rightmoves £1,000's per month.
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Just curious Thin End of the wedge, you're not an alter ego of Simon are you?
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No I'm not!
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Apologies, only I noticed he replied to a question posed to you last week almost as if he were you.
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Back to the top of the comments thread…
Interesting but very short exchange (which seems to have been overlooked or lost in the stream since) kicked off by 'undercover agent', who posted wondering if Z will end up in the belly of RM. But 'Tike Nick' – your response to the OP and that of 'mudslinger' is what really intrigues me. Maybe it's just worried me that there is someone out there that would be a potential buyer of Z that has LESS regard for Agents than RM (I didn't think that was possible…) – but I sure want to know more! You suggest "competition" to buy Z would come from a money-pots concern who would see Z as giving them "A strategic advantage" – okay… where does that take us. As I see it – Z is a shop window for property. It's 'advantage', then, I would guess, is not so much in its' stock, which it neither owns nor controls – but in its' vast market exposure or its' user base, perhaps?
You gonna play coy… or are there beans to spill and if so where and how hard do I have to squeeze them out?
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I saw that and wondered too Peebee. I am not sure quite how old you are but possibly old enough to remember General Portfolio, the Prudential Black Horse Agencies etc all having a dabble in our Industry….. With what is effectively Black Horse Agencies getting involved in the back alley of the industry so to speak (they apparently, according to the press releases on EAT and EYE) funded the purchase of GMGPSG and subsequently Jupix.
Financial services was the motivation first time round and I do not believe for a single second they will be acting as a funding only partner this time around- the Data contained in CFP, Core, Solex, Vebra, Jupix and the remnants of the old GMW system 4 data bases contains the Lion's and the Hyena's share of data on available properties. Now whether Tike Nick was alluding to the consequences of Black Horse Agencies buying up Zoopla and possibly Expert Agent and so giving them access to virtually every possible live Financial services lead that exists in the market , now and into the future I don't know. Possibly there is a US based or other foreign investor looking to get into the sector. Whoever or whatever Agents should be very mindful of who has or is likely to have access to THEIR data. Cloud systems, those not based in an agent office, are all too easy to access.
Referring to my other post about doing this for 20 years, I know very few of you Agents ever read terms and conditions very carefully. I wonder how many of you, with Cloud systems know what access you have or have not made available to third parties in the excitement of buying a new software system.
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Robert
I am sure that somewhere in the annals of time I 'fessed up' to have been brought kicking and screaming into the Estate Agency world in the early 90s. It was my birth as an Estate Agent, following 14 years of work elsewhere in the property industry. So, yes – I remember it well. Perhaps I was one of the lucky ones – the 'corporate' life didn't affect me, as the region I fell under was still run by Estate Agents who did the job first and worried later about filling in the paperwork and explaining why FS targets hadn't been hit. Add to that, I think, at the time BHA weren't as on the ball as they could have been. I've since had the displeasure of joining independent Agencies that were far more corporatized than them. But back to the content of your post – any possibility of data mining is scary to say the least. It is disappointing that the recent stories of the portals 'selling' data for marketing emails sparked huge uproar… yet this conversation is being lost within another. Tike Nick – your further input is requested – IS what Robert suggests the case in your opinion… or do you see another 'cunning plan' emerging?
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Staying on the original theme……I could see a well-endowed predator from across the pond snapping up Z once it is holed below the waterline. What better way to get straight into a 3-way fight gunfight in the UK property portals market? as for SShinerock, may I respectfully suggest he stays with his anti- OTM mouthpiece on the 'other' site. Too many "I told you so's" just gets boring.
If you haven't been invited to the party go and find one of your own.
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I welcome SShinerocks comments I don't agree with all, and he is a little abrasive but he has some well thought out comments adding balance to the discussion. Facts are at the moment, Nobody has seen a live working demo of the website. it has no "Back office" system. The public don't know about it. They have already "Hidden" future charges. They are more expensive than their direct competitor. Now all of this can change and can be overcome but do the early sign really show this is a fair and equal portal??? – I'm just asking the question
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To Smile please…"For you that statement is correct but not for others, some will be looking for an advantage over others and so on and so forth. It may not have initially be created for that reason (maybe it was) but does not stop the portal evolving. If the founding members truly did not want this option it would not be there. They will be the first to use that "option" and others will follow, unfortunately that's just the nature of the beast"…I could not disagree more, anyone who was in one of those launch meetings knows full well that featured listings is not wanted and Agents Mutual was not created for that reason.
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So why are featured listings even offered??!!
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I think the one thing we can agree on is we have very differing views on AM/OTM! I think you are a little naïve and trusting and you probably think i am pessimistic doom pusher! possibly down to location, i have no idea where you are based but guessing a nice village or town with not too many agents and you all get on well. I work in an area with approximately 40 odd agents covering a 2 mile square and do not help / trust one another accept for the odd exception – Whatever we think and whatever our market places are 2015 will certainly be interesting!
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It's a shame that you've not been to a launch as you've already alluded to, perhaps if you had done then you would know why it was mentioned. For me and many others it was because AM want us all committed to the cause 100%, it wasn't a launch it was a motivational meeting, simulate to the ones I've attended on any occasions.
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This is all becoming a bit of a disaster with the signed up agents already noting their displeasure at the features and products now being talked about. It should be fairly obvious to people that the reason these are coming about so early (PRE LAUNCH!) is that AM is already feeling the pinch but can't ask for even higher subs!
With even more announcements like this one to come in the next week or two, it's clear that the biggest players don't trust OTM enough to leave RM, ensuring Rightmoves dominance. And you can bet that they'll leverage that market position with even higher prices.
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Well said Outsider. AM have done fantastically well getting to this stage where many have failed in the past and they have sold a "Dream" to many agents. But when time has come to produce the Dream its not as some would have hoped. The best i can see them achieving in the next 24 months is split the zoopla membership with OTM – The "Dream" of toppling RM is just that a Dream …. What AM should have done is say if you are on OTM you cannot be on RM but they were not brave enough to do that and in turn when the choice is given to agents they in turn are not brave enough to drop RM. So all OTM will achieve is diluting Z (which is ironically cheaper than OTM)
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It is a pity this thread is going to drop off the page tomorrow because there is so much discussion that ought to happen off the back of this one comment.
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Actually Robert I believe the real debate will take place early January once OTM's USP's have been established.
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Hello Paul, OTM USP is established, it is the only property Portal where the rights to the data belongs exclusively to the site owners. That isn't the debate I am talking about. AM have a beta version of their site and are presumably developer testing it. You and your Co owners need to ensure their is independant assessment of what has been developed. Don't you rely on a powerepoint or video presentation make sure that those employed to build the thing have built something that works. I fully appreciate you are all in it together but it is normal for product to be beta tested before release.
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If I've understood the Featured Property function correctly, OTM have effectively created a way for wealthier agents to gain an immediate advantage via a walled garden auction. No surprise it's a polarising subject. One member one vote means little if you can buy priority – the playing field is no longer commercially level, whatever the voting policy.
I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it here: I believe the biggest barrier to OTM's ongoing success will be massive dissatisfaction among high volumes of smaller members due to OTM actions/policies perceived as going against the 'spirit' of OTM. Specifically, the commercial reality of generating the funds required to build a successful property portal brand will require members to pay more via features.
As a smaller agent, you've hardly retained control of your future if you cant financially compete within the portal you've committed to support.
You've chosen to be out bid in the competition for a (in the foreseeable future) smaller audience.
What are the implications for winning instructions? Do you guarantee to place vendor properties in the featured property position to win the instruction? Thus incurring additional costs which directly benefit OTM?
Is this the case? I'm extrapolating the information available to me so happy to be corrected. I believe the execution of OTM to date has been excellent and watching how IS navigates the stormy waters of members expectations in coming months will be very interesting.
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most agents do not want the other portals restriction
most agents dont want featured properties
most agents dont want to sign a 5 year contract
most agents dont actually want Zoopla to be driven out of business
most agents say they have power and a vote
most agents realise they dont actually have any power
most agents know that it is controlled by the the G9 (Group of 9)
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Well looks like our vote worked.
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Ian Springett has sent out an email today to members informing them that the Featured Listings will be removed. "However, it is clear from the feedback received at the meetings that this is at odds with the wish of the great majority of members that their portal environment should, from the outset, be a level playing field with no opportunity for any individual firm to gain advantage over others by paying for extra services.
Your Board has now reviewed the feedback received and has determined that the plan to introduce the set of additional products and the associated allocation methods covered at the briefings should be dropped."
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For those interested, OTM have decided to drop the featured products. "Your Board has now reviewed the feedback received and has determined that the plan to introduce the set of additional products and the associated allocation methods covered at the briefings should be dropped." Maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel with this, turns out OTM is doing what it set out to do after all!
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Question is why introduce in the first place….
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To add extra funds to the account for a bigger advertising campaign? Because the agents from down south wanted them? Some agents requested them, the majority didn't want them.
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"Question is why introduce in the first place…."Indeed, why peeve off thousands of people who attended some 39 meetings up and down the country, when there was never any intention to do it, does make you wonder doesn't it especially as no one will do it…..26.01.15…OTM…exciting times
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Paul are you having a pop at on OTM and then in the same breath saying you are excited about this????
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"Paul are you having a pop at on OTM and then in the same breath saying you are excited about this????"…Smile Please I genuinely wish you the best of luck and baring in mind that you are tied in to Zoopla until July you will need it.
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Paul im really happy with my choice to stay with Z till at least July when I can reassess thank you. What I cant get my head around is you have been the "Poster boy" for the last 12 months of AM / OTM – and now when its not panning out the way you expected and you voice concerns you then in next breath say how excited you are? it is okay Paul you can have your own opinion and not be led by Ian Sprignett the entire way! or are you saying they were so clever in offering the "additional" advertising they knew nobody would take it and there would be uproar? – If that's the case I will hunt Ian down and get him to buy me a lottery ticket!
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FYI I'm tied into a 6 months contract on a portal that may fail (which has market share) – You are tied into a 5 year contract that has a greater chance of failing. Only one need the Luck!
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If only there was a property portal listening to the concerns of the vast majority. Imagine being part of a website where the size of your company (and therefore wealth) does not matter and they take note of the majority of voices….. #otm26.1.15 exciting times.
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Imagine a portal that is a wolf in sheeps clothing, dresses itself up as friendly to agents but have their own agenda to push …….#otm26.1.15 uncertain times.
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Smile please…"What I cant get my head around is you have been the "Poster boy" for the last 12 months of AM / OTM – and now when its not panning out the way you expected and you voice concerns."…I'm not posting concerns, I have complete faith in the team at Agents Mutual, even more so after the event of the last week…."FYI I'm tied into a 6 months contract on a portal that may fail (which has market share) – You are tied into a 5 year contract that has a greater chance of failing. Only one need the Luck!"…I think it fairly clear from this thread who is the one more confident with their decision, once again I wish you the best of luck.
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As a landlord, when I choose to use an agent to manage a property (2 at present) if it does not show up on RightMove within 24hr, I will change agents! I MAY if it is an agent the I LOVE, put up with the property not being on Zoopla.
As I also have some properties I manage myself, I will not look positively on any agent just because they are on AM.
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The only way for AM to win, is for it to provide a better service to people looking to rent or buy.
E.g., it will have to offer something like a credit check that is portable between all agents in a town, or a single on-line system for booking viewings that works for properties regardless of the agent they are with. Or maybe refuse to list any property that does not have a floorplan, along with showing the agents charges with a system to audit that the charges are truthful.
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