‘Hundreds’ of agents who ‘want to quit OTM’ express interest in joining action – claim

| Rosalind Renshaw

In a dark day for OnTheMarket, a significant number of its agents, running into the hundreds, yesterday are said to have expressed interest in how to extricate themselves from membership.

Iain White told EYE that he had received a large number of emails from separate business owners in the course of the day wanting to come away from OTM.

White, an ex-director of Romans and who is now a non-executive director of some 30 agency businesses, last night said: “Three of my clients felt at a commercial disadvantage through their membership of OnTheMarket.

“All three had given notice, stopped their feeds and stopped making payments. They received legal letters.

“They were objecting to this, and would have taken legal action. My advice to them was, ‘Don’t do this on your own’ and from this, came the story.

“The reasons for that are that first, you can save costs by joined-up action, and second, one individual legal action that goes wrong can damage someone else’s.

“It has come to light today that some agents who have gone back to Zoopla have received injunctions or threats of injunction.”

White said that the group has sought advice from three barristers, each of whom independently confirmed that agents who signed up to OTM prior to or very shortly after launch have very strong grounds for action based on the broken promise that they would always be paying at the lowest rate offered by OTM.

White said he has in his hands a plethora of contracts clearly offering different rates which the barristers believe means any of the early Gold or Silver contracts signed was misrepresented.

One of these barristers will, it is likely, be leading the group action.

White said that having started off with the interests of just three agents, things rapidly snowballed when the claims came out yesterday morning on Estate Agent Today.

Yesterday, said White, he not only received a large number of emails, but says a significant fighting fund was pledged.

White said: “I think the time for negotiation to resolve the issues has now passed, because of the sheer volume of those agents prepared to put their heads above the parapet.

“I have been genuinely taken aback by the strength of the sentiments made clear in many of the emails I have received.

“I have also never known a service-led organisation which is suing its own clients survive

Last night an OTM spokesperson said: “It is standard practice for any company to seek outstanding payments from customers when they are in arrears.

“We work to ensure that everyone in contract with us meets their obligations for the benefit of all members of Agents’ Mutual.”

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98 Comments

  1. EHenderson
    April 12, 2016 at 07:12

    I lost interest in this a long time ago, but now it is getting interesting again.

    For the hundreds of agents who are prepared to take action, there must be many hundreds more – possibly thousands – who are unhappy.

    If all they are left with are some hard core supporters and everyone who has signed for £50, how can they possibly survive?

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    1. Bix006
      April 12, 2016 at 08:46

      Many people set up many new business and many new businesses fail. Part of the issue here is that you have a company being run, and backed, by the kind of people that ‘don’t take ‘no’ for an answer’ or ‘never say die’.

      Sad reality is that OTM could pull the plug tomorrow and even fewer people would notice its disappearance as are aware that it even exists.

      Time for OTM to accept that this particular venture hasn’t worked.

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    2. I want to believe
      April 12, 2016 at 13:51

      Is it a coincidence that a few days after a list was published of the current standings of OTM members that this ‘story’ comes out ? The published article showed ‘ups’ and ‘downs’ of the members by region.

      I don’t know how accurate the figures published were but if you were to add the ‘down’s’ ie members that have signed a legally binding agreement and are trying to renege on it back into the list it would put membership at over 7000, which is actually getting very close to tipping point….

      just saying.

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    3. John Holden
      April 13, 2016 at 10:03

      OTM – terrible disconnect with their customers and a complete failure to deliver!

      Last year we stopped paying our account, went back to Zoopla and invited OTRM to take us to court for breach of contract.  If they really cared about their customers they would at least have talked to us and tried to resolve the real concerns we and other disappointed agents had and some still have, however, they performed as normal and delivered nothing.

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      1. PeeBee
        April 13, 2016 at 13:54

        “Last year we stopped paying… and invited OTRM to take us to court for breach of contract.  If they really cared about their customers they would at least have talked to us...”

        Sorry – are you for real?

        You effectively told them “sue me”.  What more is there to discuss?

        You’ll have your day in court to “talk” about it all you like, no doubt.

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  2. Frown Please
    April 12, 2016 at 07:16

    The last line…what about OTM themselves. Will they meet all obligations for the benefits of all AM members….

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  3. Frown Please
    April 12, 2016 at 07:17

    OTM had the right ideas at the start. Moved too far towards the profit reaping system. Than the actual help the agent system it was supposed to be.

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  4. inthefield
    April 12, 2016 at 07:31

    Come on. Don’t back out now. What fight was ever won over night. As the comment above says “it’s getting interesting now”….it is. It’s getting interesting because OTM is about to reach the tipping point. We all need to keep backing this. The alternative isn’t worth thinking about. Put your efforts into making it work instead of wanting a way out.

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    1. danny
      April 12, 2016 at 07:43

      I hate to point it out but you sound like the guy shouting “Forward” into machine gun fire as everyone is leaving the building . And when you sell using the “fear ” of “the alternative” I feel it’s only fair to point out that “the alternative” has grown unchecked due to the lack of any credible competition , exactly the opposite of what was set out to achieve

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    2. surreyagent
      April 12, 2016 at 13:25

      here here – well said inthefield

       

      too much self promotion for the dick from Romans in my humble opinion…..

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      1. PeeBee
        April 12, 2016 at 13:32

        BLEEDIN’ HELL… 

        And to think ‘Digital Expert’ said MY comment was a “personal slur” on the bloke!

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      2. iainwhite87
        April 12, 2016 at 21:46

        Dick from Romans? I assume you have some inferiority complex pertaining to ether myself, Romans or both.

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  5. danny
    April 12, 2016 at 07:32

    LOOK!!!! A £50 contract from on the market …… Who have thought they existed … Wowsers. I am the most shocked since I woke this morning . Those people who “rung head office and for told that they don’t do £50 contracts ” must be a bit angry they where lied to ….

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  6. smile please
    April 12, 2016 at 07:32

    Running into the hundreds …… I see just like OTM they are not interested in publishing actual numbers! – hundreds would say to me at least 200 individual estate agents at least are considering legal action through this group. Sorry just do not buy it.

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    1. MF
      April 12, 2016 at 07:37

      Exactly.  I don’t buy it either.  Especially as I’m getting good enquires from OTM daily – and successful lets.

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      1. Fred Jones
        April 12, 2016 at 09:31

        That may depend on where you are the leads i get are almost none existent, not relevant to current properties and touting for business.

        All my initial and genuine leads are coming from Zoopla.

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  7. J1
    April 12, 2016 at 07:54

    Just a quick question – I think a valid one

    does this gentleman hold shares in the alternative portals and if so how many?

    Agents built rightmove and zoopla why not build OTM? It took several years for Z and RM to become overnight successes

    just goes to show how fickle the agency world is, if they are dropping OTM already I think personally it is very short sighted

    It also goes to show how difficult it is to gain critical mass when confronted with unfair competition and perhaps OTM should have been more transparent and stuck to their original price points

    Zoopla have the bedside manner of Harold Shipman, OTM needs to go down a different path or risk losing everything

     

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    1. Digital Expert
      April 12, 2016 at 09:36

      Rightmove was the first consolidated success in the Portal sphere alongside many, many also rans. Zoopla spent untold £millions into making it a consumer destination and a credible alternative to RM before it gained serious traction – and agents then chose to use it. Agents didn’t build either of these websites. Technology demanded it in the first instance, and agents chose to use Z in conjunction to gain access to data savvy vendors & buyers.

      I can’t think of many industries where suppliers of data & leads are so despised – remember the newspaper only days where the overall cost was much more than the dual costing of both leading portals for a tiny fraction of the coverage and response?

      A bit like calling postwar Britain the ‘good ol’ days’. It was a brown and dreary place.

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      1. PeeBee
        April 12, 2016 at 13:35

        “A bit like calling postwar Britain the ‘good ol’ days’. It was a brown and dreary place.”

        A “brown and dreary place” where like-minded people mucked together to build a new future, to be exact.

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        1. PeeBee
          April 12, 2016 at 14:03

          And you ‘Dislike’/disagree with the above comment WHY, precisely?

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          1. PeeBee
            April 12, 2016 at 17:08

            To whom it may concern…

            Bad news – this ‘Disliking’ for the chuff of it is achieving nothing.

            You look a complete plank – albeit an anonymous one – devoid of the ability to debate.

            If that’s your planned result then congratulations – you have achieved your target with bells and whistles attached for good measure.

            If the aim is anything other than appearing to be detrimental to the good of the industry and its’ customers – then you continue to fail spectacularly with every inane press of the mousepad.

             

            * Note to EYE – will someone please make this site available to over 18’s.

            Oh – and for clarification – it’s IQ I’m referring to.

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            1. J1
              April 13, 2016 at 00:23

              Who?

               

              Me?

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              1. PeeBee
                April 13, 2016 at 12:14

                J1

                That depends on whether or not you’re the plank sitting there banging away on the ‘Dislike’ button in best Duracell Bunny fashion…

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    2. trueestateagent40
      April 12, 2016 at 17:20

      Erm sorry to interfere with your point/analogy regarding Zoopla, but didn’t they come out from practically nowhere and buy and gobble up findaproperty/Globix/Primelocation like they were Pac-Man which gave them that great foundation and platform to build to where they are now currently are?

      I remember the main portal used once upon a time to be findaproperty for lets and RM for sales (who didn’t even specialise in lettings at that time predominantly Sales) then Zoopla joined the party and nobody touched them until they forced the industry by buying everything and decided to strengthen its name by merging and becoming one entity.

      Through my eyes, I like to state OTM/Agents mutual have built a false platform based on false promises and hope in order to get where it needed to be on a quicker scale, and that’s by using the vulnerability of Estates Agents today that are genuinely sick to death of the ever so increasing unnecessary prices from Zoopla and RM monopoly, they simply over promised and under delivered, otherwise there wouldn’t be so many complaints about them and chinks in their armoury.

       

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      1. iainwhite87
        April 12, 2016 at 21:33

        For the avoidance of doubt i hold no shares in any portal and have no financial interest of any kind. I have 3 clients who believe they were competitively disadvantage being with OTM my aim is and remains to help them fight legal action that is being threatened from OTM, a combined action and pooled resources was advised by barristers and makes compete sense. Ha I g spoken to a joutprnalist it as apparent my 3 clients were not alone and the rest is history. I have not set up an action group but one has formed. I have been surprised by the anti OTM sentiment by such a large number of agents who feel let down and misled into future pricing policies.

         

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        1. Woodentop
          April 13, 2016 at 00:44

          Let me get this right it is ONLY 3 Agents!!!!!

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  8. Outspoken
    April 12, 2016 at 07:59

    Iain White is just trying to win more clients to support his own business so take it with a pinch of salt. Might be a smart time for otm to rethink their terms and strategy though. They might fall into the same trap of arrogance that has led rightmove to be unpopular with its agency customers. Time for onthemarket to offer us all an even better deal to stick with them perhaps?

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    1. iainwhite87
      April 12, 2016 at 21:34

      Outspoken in more clients?

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  9. hertsagent13
    April 12, 2016 at 08:22

    I joined early on and subsequently lost 7% market share over the course of 10 months. When I signed up I was told that 5/6 of the larger agents had signed, the reality was just 3 of us and I owned 2 of those brands. Now back on zoopla we have quickly recovered our lost market share. I’d be happy to support OTM the problem is they don’t support us in return!  I had numerous conversations with OTM and got the basic reply of suck it up you’re in contract. I’ll be joining this action group to save my business.

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    1. Paul
      April 12, 2016 at 09:44

      I think you should be looking elsewhere if you need to join an action group to save your business?!

      I wonder how all those agents who never used Zoopla or in a lot of cases RM before OTM came along survived or made a living, weird?

      It’s like a local agent that valued a friends house recently (I told them to get 3 or 4 and not rely purely on my advice) and all they could say about 2 of the other agents, was that they cut down their choice of reaching everyone by not being on Zoopla!

      What a weak way to try and win the business.  What about what you can do, what you have done, not what everyone else is doing?

      If RM is number you don’t need to be on number 2?  The only reason to be on number 2 is to turn it into number 1.

      By the way, that agent valued the property £100k less than the other 3 and me.

      I’d love to know when they don’t get the instruction what they put it down to, because they can’t blame not being on Zoopla, like so many other people do, who are unable to look closer to home for the truth.

      It amazes me that so many agents don’t have the gumption or drive to change the course of events.  Your industry is being attacked from all corners and the media are loving it, taking swipes wherever they can, because they would love to see the demise of the devil that is an EA.

      But you all keep feeding the beast that is RM, while they provide a voice and a platform for the on-liners, who will gain traction and erode your already fragile fees and your market share.  You will lower your margins lower, because that is what everyone is doing and its the only way to deal with it right?

      There will be a very different playing field in the future, one where only the strong will survive and those that don’t fear change.

      The case for OTM was simple, get to critical mass, become number 2 and then go after RM.  The focus should never have been on RM or what they are doing during this process.

      They were number 1 already, it doesn’t matter that they are still number 1 or an even stronger number 1, what is a stronger number 1 anyway, so why people get all hot under the collar about this, god only knows.

       

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      1. Digital Expert
        April 12, 2016 at 09:57

        Your stance against Zoopla is very interesting I’m sure – but what about OTM?

        Agents had their chance to make a stand against RM, and they bottled it by dropping a competitor and now the main target is much, much stronger.

        Again, I liken this to saving money on utility bills by leaving the heating on overnight and opening the windows.

        If you don’t like RM, drop it. But don’t pretend that cancelling/not using Zoopla will make one tiny bit of difference to them – in face, RM would actively encourage it. It’s pretty easy to see that.

         

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        1. Paul
          April 12, 2016 at 10:27

          What about OTM DE?

          I want it to survive and I believe in a portal owned and controlled by agents, simple really.

          I don’t need OTM to survive for my business to survive though, my motivations and views are not clouded and I have no hidden agenda.

          Agents never had their chance, because OTM had a clear strategy, that was spelled out to everyone from the start.

          Number 2 portal was aim.  It would be naïve of anyone to think that a new entrant to the portal arena could walk in day one and get a nation of estate agents to stop using the number 1 portal let alone both, hence the strategy.

          They have achieved much, much more than the doubters and are still here and I haven’t heard about any businesses closing down because they supported it.  As I mentioned before, there are no excuses, so don’t go looking for them, but many still do.

          Explain the difference it makes to RM then DE?

          They are no 1, are perceived as number one and continue to be the darling of the financial markets due to there extraordinary profit margins.  They are the publics go to portal when it comes to looking / browsing for property.

          They continue to milk the cow that created them and sustains their very existence.   What else has changed?

          That statement of FACT above has no baring on the strategy that OTM has, which is to become the number 2 portal.  RM making more money day by day has no baring on that strategy.

          The only thing that can make or break the strategy is the agents themselves.  Much as they created RM and Zoopla, they can take their power away, much the same as they can make or break OTM.

          So please don’t pretend that anything else, other than the agents themselves, will make a difference in this situation.

           

           

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    2. phoenix
      April 12, 2016 at 13:22

      As I said repeatedly to OTM, they concentrated on agent numbers over public awareness to the severe determent of any launch impact. The simple fact is that the public have not heard of them. No pre-launch or teaser marketing campaign…nothing. In addition, whatever marketing was done has been done at the agent’s expense! Totally ludicrous.

      With so many willing to commit they could have had a six month teaser campaign with every member agent pushing the new website on every email footer, letter head, press ad, company car, leaflet, flag board and office window…to have the opportunity for all that marketing at their disposal and do nothing, not even a window sticker, was unforgivable in my view. As a result, I did not join OTM to protect my business. Initially, bigger firms have, and to a certain extent, continue to weather the storm. How long that can continue will be interesting.

       

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      1. Property Pundit
        April 12, 2016 at 16:34

        ‘As a result, I did not join OTM to protect my business.’ So you’re not on rightmove then?

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  10. BerksSurreyAgent
    April 12, 2016 at 09:18

    OTM members need to stick at it, Rome wasn’t built in a day and you have to expect it to take time to get the leads coming in etc., which I am starting to see at my office, not in high numbers yet but they are growing. In our area the majority of agents went with OTM and dropped Zoopla and it certainly has not affected our business.

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  11. PeeBee
    April 12, 2016 at 09:18

    Just a small point

    Has anyone had a look at Mr White’s LinkedIn page.

    His stated list of companies he is a “Consultant” to throws up the biggest cry of feigned surprise since the phrase ‘No 5h!t, Sherlock’ was first uttered.

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    1. Digital Expert
      April 12, 2016 at 09:37

      A personal slur does not a counter argument make.

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      1. PeeBee
        April 12, 2016 at 09:44

        Personal slur?  I think not.

        Merely an observation.

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        1. Property Pundit
          April 12, 2016 at 10:22

          One wonders what Digital Expert’s LinkedIn page would throw up.

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          1. Digital Expert
            April 12, 2016 at 10:25

            If only you knew.

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          2. PeeBee
            April 12, 2016 at 11:51

            Property Pundit – when you say

            “One wonders what Digital Expert’s LinkedIn page would throw up.”

            can I just clarify by “throw up”, do you mean to suggest phrases and terminology like:

            ‘Barf’?

            ‘Spew’?

            ‘Upchuck’?

            ‘Puke’?

            or what about that really funny one – ‘Pavement PiZZa’?

            Of course, I am sure that the letter ‘Z’ – or anything associated with that letter for that matter – would be the last thing you would see on his ‘LinkedIn page…

            …but – I have been wrong before, and no doubt will be again.

            Someday.  Maybe even today.  Who knows.

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            1. Property Pundit
              April 12, 2016 at 16:35

              Spot on there PeeBee.

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              1. PeeBee
                April 12, 2016 at 17:27

                Careful, Property Pundit – it’s a dangerous line you’re walking to be seen to agree with me.

                You have been warned…

                ;o)

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        2. iainwhite87
          April 12, 2016 at 21:22

          Your point is?

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          1. PeeBee
            April 13, 2016 at 07:39

            You have a commercial interest with that particular company – a company whose owner has publicly made the failure of Agents Mutual his personal mission.

            In my opinion this compromises your position as it certainly makes me question your agenda.

            And I’m entitled to an opinion – aren’t I?

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            1. Woodentop
              April 13, 2016 at 09:49

              And it now turns out that IT IS ONLY 3 AGENTS.

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            2. iainwhite87
              April 13, 2016 at 21:57

              You are indeed entitled to your opinion, I can’t recall suggesting you are not, do you see words that are not there?

              I was asking a genuine question as I was not able to see any relevance in your comment. Having looked at all your comments by way of research I now have an opinion of you and I am sat here now with a group of estate agents having a great laugh at your expense.

              thanks been a busy few days but the entertainment you have provided is just brilliant.

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              1. PeeBee
                April 13, 2016 at 22:49

                “I am sat here now with a group of estate agents having a great laugh at your expense.”

                I am delighted that you have found something to amuse yourself with – not to mention your three new bezzies we have read about in the neatly moderated story above.

                I never considered myself to be the equivalent of a ‘shiny thing’ – but if I take your mind off the real issues that should be worrying the bejesus out of you all then I have achieved something at least.

                Maybe you should take your new-found shared humour to the next level – I would heartily recommend you build yourselves a campfire, boil up some beans and brew up a four-man f@rt-fest in best Blazing Saddles style.

                Then – you can report on it here.

                I, for one, can’t wait.

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  12. Property Paddy
    April 12, 2016 at 09:20

    Loving the way OTM looks after it’s clients, where do I sign ?

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  13. henrymarr80
    April 12, 2016 at 09:25

    I think the relative silence from the agents not using OTM tells a story. Especially in Central London the volume of enquires through Zoopla are eye popping vs OTM. So ironically, OTM biggest fans are those not using it. It is a little bit like Foxtons. We all cannot stand them but we acquire a quiet pleasure in finding out a vendor/landlord has had them in because we know that that the client will consider paying a full fee for the right service.

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  14. Digital Expert
    April 12, 2016 at 09:27

    In response to the Open Question posed by Peebee a few days ago:

    I hate to say it but now do you believe me? You’ve enjoyed ridiculing me for stating what has finally been presented here as undeniable fact and I have let you for you had obviously been deceived, but for once your own absence here is notable.

    I, like the others you mentioned, read PIE daily, and it’s even handedness everywhere but on this topic riles me and the others into commenting.

    I applaud PIE for finally approaching the subject.

    There are no winners here – deceit doesn’t taste nice, I have only ever tried to present the truth without any perceivable bias. Propaganda deserves to have it’s own bubble burst. And I just heard a big bang.

    The truth always outs.

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    1. PeeBee
      April 12, 2016 at 09:43

      “…but for once your own absence here is notable.”

      Read again, sunshine – posted nine minutes before you predictably showed up.

      You must have got your call-up message a bit late this morning.  Even EHenderson beat you to it – and she’s been Missing Presumed Defeated for the past few months.

      You are letting your side down, Digital Expert.

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      1. Digital Expert
        April 12, 2016 at 09:51

        And your response is…?

        A criticism for doing exactly as you do by commenting on a news piece. Odd.

        You post more frequently, and often much earlier than I – so what is your learned response on the actual news content?

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        1. PeeBee
          April 12, 2016 at 13:13

          “And your response is… on the actual news content?”

          I see:

          a lot of words with no solid substance.

          300 alleged emails

          the words “White“, “said” and “told” used in every possible permutation

          and the deafening silence that is – in round, approximate numbers – NOT ONE OTM Agent making a song and dance here on EYE in the way that Mr White and EAT would have people think.

          That’s my response.  Don’t choke on it, please.

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  15. SJEA
    April 12, 2016 at 09:50

    It’s not surprising the number of firms and individuals that do not want OTM to work.

    Any business owner with the good sense to try and look forward a few years would support this last drive to topple Z & RM.

    I am sick of the ever increasing prices and poor service offered by the Z & RM and I certainly want to ensure that we have a portal owned and run by like-minded people.

    One story written by an individual with motives does not change my opinion on what is good for our business.

    In relation to a ‘loss’ in business, we have seen the complete opposite and an increase in our business and quality enquiries – but I do not put this in any part down to the property portals, but to my staff driving the business.

    I still cannot believe that any Estate Agency business owner does not want this to succeed. For those not on OTM – get off your ar** and take some positive action to help your future business !

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    1. iainwhite87
      April 12, 2016 at 21:39

      Who says they don’t want it to work?

       

      What at is definite is they want their own business to work, for many that does not seem to be best served by OTM and only one other portal.

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  16. Fred Jones
    April 12, 2016 at 09:57

    I think OTM’s first issue was in presenting itself as a threat to Zoopla and its relentless pursue of being No2, aiming to be a threat on the least threatening of the two market leaders.
    Lets face it, the whole thing that they where ‘On The Market’ for was because of the outrageous prices being charged by ZPG and RM. What they should have been concentrating on is the big one, the one that charges 3x more than any other RM.
     
    RIP, OTM

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  17. the message
    April 12, 2016 at 10:22

    I have stayed away from posting on here for a while now, as we were all going round in circles really. Lets see how this plays out but a few comments from me.

     

    “Mr White” is a consultant trying to drum up business. He is obviously spinning things to drive interest and to make himself money. No shame in that, but a matter of fact, so everything should be taken with a pinch of salt

    People have entered into contracts with OTM by their own volition, you can’t just break arbitrarily without any risk of legal challenge

    Trying to injunct or stop agents leaving via legal recourse is a very messy step to take.

    OTM have been offering reduced deals (can you imagine any agent in Northern ireland for instance paying £300 per month??!!!). I would imagine this will ultimately drive a coach and horses through the OTM legal position.

    OTM has consistenty refused to listen to agents who weren’t silver of gold (BUT WERE THE NEXT WAVE OF CUSTOMERS) who said the main things stopping us from joining were the exclusivity clause, the high fees given the low current value they drove

    (Some of us had other reasons, like the dirty grubby way they behaved around countrylife, overseas agents, lack of corporate governance etc etc, but I will leave off beating that drum today)

    It could be that this is a blessing in disguise for OTM. Get rid of exclusivity, drop all fees to £50 per month (the value they currently provide) and slowly build the business up. Turn off overseas, stop worrying about hitting certain short term numbers, stop focusing on northern ireland, get rid of half of the fat cats from the board, run the business more cost effectively, and who knows, in 3 years you might be a credible business where people feel they can drop Z or R, but wont be forced into it.

    I fear though that isnt how it will play out. How much are OTM spending on legal fees, who is winning here, and when OTM lose a legal case, as they surely will, the ill will is so great they will lose a huge chunk of members.

     

    Anyway, I await from the abuse from the usual suspects of Paul, peeBee, woodentop et al, all who have a personal responsibility for this mess, by shooting down all of us who were genuinely trying to stop this day coming.

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    1. Property Pundit
      April 12, 2016 at 10:26

      Your absence really should have been extended based on the above.

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      1. the message
        April 12, 2016 at 10:43

        haha – fairpoint – obviously a touch rusty in my ascerbic wit!!

         

         

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    2. Paul
      April 12, 2016 at 10:50

      Hi message, are you referring to me there, as there are a few Paul’s on here, but only one Paul, which is me.

      I am happy to stand corrected, but as far as I am concerned, I have never abused you, so take exception to that comment if it is directed at me, but hopefully not.  (I’m lack confidence, so that’s the last thing I need!)

      As for blaming us, I am at a loss to see how you would or could even start to blame that on us.  We are but a handful of people that have spoken out against a lot of negative postings (some more emotionally than others granted).  A handful out of thousands that have joined OTM

      Most of these negatives have come from people with hidden agendas and something to gain from the demise of OTM, not all, but a lot.

      The media, RM, Zoopla, the city, the venture capitalist, the corporate agents, EP, PB, all the other on-liners and anyone else that cares to join in are all plotting against OTM, getting a dig in where they can and running a continued campaign to halt their progress, why?  Because they know what it would do to them.

      It’s a wonder given the above that OTM have achieved anything, in fact it’s a modern day miracle!

      So all it had to do was galvanise the industry, the very people and the only people that can make a difference.

      The biggest hurdle they have faced is not the names I have mentioned above, but its the very people it aims to benefit, the very people that understand the industry that we work in, that live and breath it day in day out – US!

      As I mentioned to DE above, I believe in OTM and its aims and I want it to survive, but it’s demise won’t be the end of my business, it will be just a lost opportunity.

      Opportunities don’t come around very often, so it’s a shame when those opportunities are missed.

      Paul

       

      Report
    3. iainwhite87
      April 12, 2016 at 21:41

      a matter of fact? We have never met please don’t state mater of fact about my intentions.

      Report
  18. Woodentop
    April 12, 2016 at 10:48

    It seems from yesterday story on EAT over this subject the agents were those that seem to think that if they sat back and did nothing OTM was the holy grail of producing leads.

     

    OTM is no different to any other web portal, it is  a marketing outlet which will only work with the support of the agents input to promote it. That is why in some areas it is going strong and other areas it is not. Just like Z are extremely poor in many parts of the country. In my town we have an agent who is OTM but from day one has only promoted RM which is all over their office inside and out. The public will follow the lead of the agent, if agents continue to promote one web portal in favour of another …. were do you expect the public to go! OTM are a catch up and done extremely better than RM or Z ever did when they started out.

     

    If you want OTM to succeed agents need to support it and get off any other web portal  …. you are likely to be in self destruct mode otherwise?

     

    And remember this ….. why did OTM come about? It was to try and break the monopoly by RM & Z. Both these two organisations are not interested in anything but making money and are the ones that will eventually put you out of business if Purple Bricks and the like get their way.

     

    It would be far better and believable if someone would come up with the proof that £50 is being offered, its been shouted around for so long now, but no evidence ……. strange as the press would have a field day if it was true. My evidence is to the contrary and can confirm that it was being spouted by the Zoopla reps to get me to go back to them.

    Report
  19. Robert May
    April 12, 2016 at 10:50

    Would it be more productive to suggest  a number of agents who have joined Agents Mutual are dissatisfied with  OTM

    With just short of 4 years still to run it seems sensible to  assess what is and isn’t working and address those points.

    I can see a role for Iain heading up a healthy  and opposing balance committee of agents to help review and if necessary adjust the future but I can’t see  what looks like is shaping up into a  civil war will benefit  estate agents.

    Agents Mutual is a good thing and should not suffer because of OTM. OTM is a service product, it is right for some, not right for others. Removing the  pot stirring emotion of people already proven wrong;  it saw out 3 months, saw out  6, 9 and 12 months despite confident, vocal predictions it wouldn’t, the product has to be reviewed and allowed to evolve. It is better to do that than allow all of the good to be lost because  it is not performing exactly to expectations.

     

    Iain would be good for the role if he maintains the independence such a role demands.

     

    Report
    1. PeeBee
      April 12, 2016 at 12:00

      Robert – you state

      “Iain would be good for the role if he maintains the independence such a role demands.”

      Am I right in however suggesting that in order for Mr White to maintain “independence”, he first needs to demonstrate that he is, in fact, independent and there is and will be no external influence to his actions past, present or future?

      Over to Mr White, I guess…

      Report
      1. Robert May
        April 12, 2016 at 12:23

        Being independent of influence isn’t something most people  need to be mindful of and it certainly looks like this is an evolving role for Iain so an independent past is not something that can be pulled out of a hat.

        The interesting thing is  whether Iain appears all woaded up and ready for battle or takes times to consider the responsibility that has been laid at his door.

        I can well imagine a  few of the vocal  ‘anti from the outset’ crew being disappointed if Iain isn’t prepared to take a bullet on their behalf.

        Report
        1. the message
          April 12, 2016 at 12:47

          Would have been great to have had someone like Iain on the OTM Board from the off.

          Report
          1. Robert May
            April 12, 2016 at 13:03

            Chances are such a  board wouldn’t have achieved what they have in the time. As it is AM/OTM is perfect for some agents, the project is airborne but now is the time to refine the design.  The MK24 Spitfire was a very different beast to K5054.

            This discussion is  essentially about a product rather than the affinity group, however this all pans out the affinity grouping of  1/3rd of the professional industry is the bit that  needs preserving and moving forward.

            Report
            1. PeeBee
              April 12, 2016 at 13:49

              I agree to your analogy – but in my opinion the #24 would not have won The War for us.

              Report
              1. Robert May
                April 12, 2016 at 14:06

                You’d still take a 24 over 5054 unless you wanted something pretty to admire.

                Report
                1. PeeBee
                  April 12, 2016 at 14:48

                  Nah – I’m a Merlin man all day, mate.

                  Later Griffon models had a pesky habit of eating green at 400+mph

                  Report
      2. iainwhite87
        April 12, 2016 at 21:24

        define independent

        Report
        1. Woodentop
          April 13, 2016 at 00:49

          3 agents out of 6,000 isn’t even a blot on the landscape. One does wonder what your motives are and very suspect about your independence to take the case on.

          Report
        2. Robert May
          April 13, 2016 at 07:03

          I don’t need to define independent, but I am happy to explain what I mean. Fighting the dissatisfaction with OTM performance  will only be done by addressing the reasons it   doesn’t deliver to expectation. The reason is OTM, in the hands of the field reps, became a cure for everything: It was going to tame the Duopoly, rid the world of passive intermediary charlatans and provide the lat/long for the pot of gold at  the end of the rainbow.

          These are issues involving the  first release of a service product, it is a product that works for some and not for others, the  aim should not to get anyone out of the contract for the product but to make the product deliver.

          There are people who want the project to fail, some have valid reasons, some have commercial reasons, some people are just malcontents and a bit thick, un- picking what is a massive stag rut of entrepreneurial prowess  needs to be done carefully and without influence from any of the vested and vocal interests.

          Agents Mutual needs to succeed for the industry, OTM  needs to change and settle down. There are bits AM needs to tackle so perhaps the way forward is  to establish what can be achieved by the affinity  group of agents and what can be done by their product.

          Report
          1. PeeBee
            April 13, 2016 at 07:31

            COMMENT OF THE YEAR – end of.

            Report
  20. Beano
    April 12, 2016 at 12:11

    quote; “I have also never known a service-led organisation which is suing its own clients survive’   Not sure I agree with this; there are no doubt plenty of businesses that have to sue to get invoices paid for whatever reason, I myself being one on a few occasions, and I’m still here ;).

    And if we are going down that road it is surely rare that a company that mistreats and abuses the loyalty of its clients will surely suffer longevity issues? Or are estate agents so uniquely dog eat dog that they would rather in fight and overpay? Ok then…..

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  21. PeeBee
    April 12, 2016 at 13:23

    “I have also never known a service-led organisation which is suing its own clients survive”

    Erm… REALLY, Mr White?

    I cannot think of a single Estate Agency I know which has never had to resort to at least the threat of Legal action to recover costs, previously agreed under signed Contract (and many on ‘unsigned’) at one point in their history.

    Mores to the point – I don’t know of a single one of them that is no longer in business for that reason.

    ******** content needs to be more robust, I would suggest.  EYE readers are a hard bunch.

    Report
    1. the message
      April 12, 2016 at 14:40

      peeBee, it is spin of course, he is drumming up trade. Shame that you are so caught up on semantics now, but have let springers et al run rings around you without you being bold enough to challenge the small print.

       

      Total branches including Northern ireland (how is NI helping us defeat the R and Z duopoly?), no independent agents on the Board, powering countrlife, overseas agents investment, no exclusivity on overseas agents………which of these have you forensically challenged?!

      Report
      1. PeeBee
        April 12, 2016 at 14:53

        ‘the message’ – thanks for thinking of me the way you do, but I’m pleased to say I am “caught up” on nowt.

        Any dirty washing I have is kept securely in the utility room until it is whiter than white and smelling of roses – you won’t find my mucky smalls on display here or anywhere else.

        Unlike some…

        Report
  22. the message
    April 12, 2016 at 14:58

    that is  a fair point, some things better left said in private, but you have also been very keen to surpress legitimate debate which is to your shame.

    Report
    1. PeeBee
      April 12, 2016 at 15:25

      Well that being your opinion – and you are of course entitled to one regardless of how incorrect it is – shame on me be it.

      I think you will find that it is more a case that those that walk/RLF/hide away from ‘robust debate’ simply ain’t up to the job in the first place…

      …but, again – this time that’s my opinion.

      Report
      1. PeeBee
        April 12, 2016 at 15:26

        Oh – and before you think it – the ‘Dislike’ WASN’T from me.  Not my style.

        I’ve squared it up for you.

        Report
    2. Robert May
      April 12, 2016 at 15:40

      That isn’t correct or reasonable. Not being up to debating with Peebee isn’t the same thing as him suppressing debate.

      Report
      1. the message
        April 12, 2016 at 16:09

        I spent a huge amount of time effort and energy trying to get a proper debate going, listed 10 key things for OTM to do, met with the standard smears and piffle that peebee et al think shows their superiority.

        You robert were always totally consistent – you would wait for 12 months and then ask the “tough” questions….not sure what happened but you were obviously satisfied.

         

        If you are realy up for debate Peebee, what is wrong with the  points listed below/what woud YOU do to change things, rather than just blindly following the messiah that is Springnut?..

         

         

        Report
        1. Robert May
          April 12, 2016 at 17:10

          Opening up  membership by reducing the cost and attracting in smaller agents  was a  logical next step in the progression, to that end  I am happy that more agents can get involved.

          I don’t like the mid 90’s format  aggregating property portal,  but it works for the membership.

          I believe Agents Mutual  is a valuable achievement that should not suffer because the OTM product isn’t quite right and  whatever happens with  this, in my opinion warranted disquiet, starting over afresh with a new mutual, or co-operative isn’t an option.

          Other than  disdain for shouty, passive intermediary, distruptors Entrepreneurial agents  will struggle to agree on very much at all so to get 30% to be in the same affinity group for 14 months is a massive achievement.

          With a business mindset OTM is a weaker than it should be product that is artificially  supported by agents who agreed to a 5 year tie in.  It take proper management to be self critical and to listen to constructive suggestion. If Iain is the  means to air the criticism and suggestion and it is not allowed to be become anything more I think he will do a good job for the industry’s best interest.

          Report
        2. PeeBee
          April 12, 2016 at 17:11

          “I spent a huge amount of time effort and energy trying to get a proper debate going, listed 10 key things for OTM to do, met with the standard smears and piffle that peebee et al think shows their superiority.”

          Please feel free to show me where and when I am supposed to have smeared and piffled on your 10-point plan.

          Report
          1. the message
            April 12, 2016 at 17:40

            so go on then, you waste so much time making sarcastic points, how about a genuine review of the points raised, or come up with some suggestions as to where OTM comes from here? Or contine to just sit there sniping and moaning at anyone with the temerity to stand up to the OTM bullyboys and associated Kapo’s.

            Report
            1. PeeBee
              April 12, 2016 at 18:22

              You have not demonstrated what you claim to be the case, Sir.

              I look forward to your fulfilling that request.

              Maybe then I will respond to yours.

              Report
  23. the message
    April 12, 2016 at 16:10

    Context. OTM.
    What all agents can agree on. The concept of OTM is great – a website that allows us to leave both R and Z, and for a fraction of the cost get everything we got from them, with the certainty that prices stay very low, and we don’t allow virtual agents on, thereby destroying their chances of any kind of success.
    I am genuinely trying to be objective here, and I hope that even the most die hard OTM dullards will accept that something has to happen over the next 6 months or so to shake up the stalemate that has settled in, whereby OTM have insuffcient funds to make a huge marketing splash and grab traffic, insufficient properties listed to wow people who arrive, and not enough gizmo’s on the site for the people who are used to more. We also have a situation where R is powering ahead.
    And all the OTM fans can like it or not, but something needs to change to convince me and my ilk to take the risk and join. It would take me the below, and like it or not many agents are in my shoes, a damn site more agents feel like me than they do like you, so stop pontificating and start listening!
    OK, here goes:
    1 Chairman – appoint an independent chairman, experienced player in space, no current affiliations, who can be therespected and independent elder statesman
    2 Board of Diretors. OTM to have c.4 directors appointed by shareholders. Their reappointement to be agreed annuallly by a vote. ANyone free to stand, initial decision made by a vote of all goldmembers.
    The reason for these first two is to put a more sensible corporate governance framework around things – members have the confidence that there is a robust infrastructure for accountability, they can rotate directors on an annual basis, and we lose the stench of rotting flesh that currently exists with a board packed with high end agents, and no independence. The high end can be guaranteed one board seat, given they kicked this off, but thats it
    3 set a sensible 3 year plan, stop making promises you cant possibly deliver. 3 years is a realistic timeframe to move into number 2 spot (and number 2 spot means by traffic/leads, nothing else- ultimately nowt else matters in relation to marketing spend)
    4 charge sensibly. The true value of OTM at the moment is about £50 (I am guessing here, dont have access to enough stats, but enough anecdotal evidence to kno its around this). So charge £100 a month, prices to rise in line wit growth of business. £50 a month is an “investment” in OTM’s success and the future benefit this brings, £50 or more is the value brought
    5 This might mean a reduction in revenues if you cant win more business in the short term. Fine, cut cloth accordingly. Some of this is easy as you stop chasing a short term dream, and part of this is sensible stuff around running a start up more efficiently than now. Again anecdotally, OTM is currently run like a mature business. Its not, its a start up tech business.
    6 DROP the exclusivity clause. a £100 a month fee will be low enough to drive lots of new members, and you have 3 years to catch Z up now, so take your time and do it right. Having a natural blocker on inventory growth is really stupid . Every member can push OTM to consumers and over time the brand will grow, traffic will grow etc, and people can then leave R or Z when it makes commercial sense to do so, not when they are committing commercial suicide
    7 Sort out more sensible packages for the senior execs. Yes, IS should earn a fortune if this is successful, and yes its impossible for him to do that if its a mutual and he cant own shares. But you cant have him (and a few others) taking out the vast amounts they are now. So bite the bullet, ditch the mutual, set up a standard ltd company, give him and mgt 20% between them. Rest is shared out amongst early stage investors, and new shares given fr each £50 invested going forward. Or put a couple of mission aside as a bonus for him/them in 3 years when the targets are hit.
    8 Move the HQ out of london – no reason to be there whatsoever
    9 drop the countrylife deal – there were no initial plans to be a whitelabel partner, this isnt an area we should be going down – focus on the core business, work on a better product offering, longer term brand building and back end services to members, ALL members
    10 ditto with overseas, a total white elephant and a sop to the high end guys – it stinks.

    Report
    1. iainwhite87
      April 12, 2016 at 23:03

      Interesting views

      Report
      1. Woodentop
        April 13, 2016 at 01:13

        Would be if he actually understood OTM. being on the outside he fails to grasp what is happening within with the members and that sadly is the point. Those that make comment from outside, often do not really understand. Items 1 & 2 have nothing to do with the public and success of the web site, it is only a marketing outlet and they got it doing what it needs to do for under half of RM. Item 3 is already in existence, actually 5 year plan (I prefer a one year but what the hell) Confirmed with item 4 you are guessing and wrong assumption, item 5 is nonsense, item 6 is questionable as most agents can’t afford to be on three or more sites, item 7 I have to question your understanding of what and why OTM came about and your understanding of how a mutual works, Item 8 what relevance to it working, I suppose you know the cost of running the HQ, which is a red herring argument (any excuse to list points?) Item 9 & 10 doesn’t stop the web portal working (or any of the other points raised!) and me getting business, adding Overseas is not my market but the cost to me as a member is negligible but a stream for new members and market awareness.

         

        You seem to have found no grounds why OTM isn’t working but more your personal opinion on who and how it is run to your taste?

         

        Now that is  not an attack on you but a response your request for debate.

        Report
        1. the message
          April 13, 2016 at 09:39

          Woodentop – you have missed the point in many ways, but fair enough, will take time for the blinkers to come off.

          I am calling for a fundmental change in how OTM is run, to give it a better chance of success. 1 and 2 are about bringing in better controls and governance, absolutely key for a mutual that people trust the decision makers are acting in the best interests of the business – the total lack of independence at the top in the current OT structure means many of us are loathe to join.

          3 is not in existence. They have been saying number 2 by xmas (gone) when they are 10pc of zoopla size, and they are running a business charging far too much for the marketing services they provide. The current plan calls for far too aggressive marketing spend, ridiculous amounts of PPC spend, all trying to hit unrealistic targets

          4 – it is a sensible assumption based on traffic and what R/Z used to charge in the early stages of their growth. Charge as low as possible, make it as easy as pssible for people to join, slowly grow the inventory and the brand. Yes, this means less revenue, so cut the cost base accordingly

          5 – it isnt nonsense at all, OTM is an early stage business spending fortunes on CEO, expensive london offices and far too many staff. They pay top wack to people. They need to be lean and mean, as start up businesses are. They are fat already

          6 – most could afford 50-100 a month to support OTM whilst it built its business

          7 _ fair point, BUT they have to do something, you cant have the staff bill its current size. Also staff not incentivised to be successful. How do you hire top quality tech resource, or digital marketing people when you cant offer options and all other early stage businesses do? At the moment you hire them by paying loads

          8 – its about saving money, as is 9 and 10. also about focusing the business on whts improtant – far too much time spent on things only important to a very few members

           

          anyway, that was my response. Get me in there for a week and it would be back on track!

           

           

          Report
          1. Woodentop
            April 13, 2016 at 10:00

            But none of your arguments stop OTM from working and providing the service to its customers and public.

             

            Do not all your arguments over CEO’s and HQ’s and costs etc  also apply to all other web portals and any business but I don’t here you complaining about RM fee’s and overheads and profit margins for example.

             

            OTM does what it is required to do and no matter how anyone wants to dress it up, it does works. The arguments have always been clearly personal opinion of who AM is and what goes on in the background and of course those that have good reason to see it fail.

            Report
            1. the message
              April 13, 2016 at 10:33

              that is such blinkered rubbish I am afraid mate. OTM is not worth £300 a month YET. People whoa re paying it are investing for the future. People who are paying this are in effect shareholders, but being treated as second class citizens. OTM needs to run the business better, which means make its money last longer and run it properly.

              Genuinely amazed you cant see through this – or maybe not given the levels of busiess acumen shown by someone who can make such BS statements as “OTM does what it is required to do”…..required to do by whom – the consumers, who have never heard of it/dont go there/when they do dont go back again, or the members who pay £300 for little or no advertsising benefits, or the vast majority of agents who dont bother advertising on it in the first place?

               

              jeez, you are properly clueless mate – fiddling whilst rome is burning.

              Report
              1. Woodentop
                April 13, 2016 at 13:12

                Seems you have succumbed to good old tried and tested argument when someone disagrees with you, be spiteful. Why ask for debate? As it happens what about Z or RM in your argument  … the same principle applies to them or don’t they have shareholders for example? The list is long and your argument is getting tedious.

                 

                I think it is clear for everyone to see that you put comments up and expect no-one to have a valid disagreement to your personal vendetta against AM, for that is more what it is starting to look like.

                 

                Some of your last comments are showing you for what you are and lack of understanding on many fronts. Meanwhile I continue to run a highly successful estate agency where the public switch the TV on and see OTM, buy the local paper with OTM marketing, receive post with OTM literature and walk down the street seeing OTM advertising all over the place or do you live on an isolated island in the North Sea. You haven’t a clue of how good my business background is, I once lived out of a suitcase for 10 years building some of the most successful companies in the country and due to confidentiality clause I’m restricted from saying anymore on that subject, as is my business studies lecturing.

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                1. PeeBee
                  April 13, 2016 at 22:55

                  “I think it is clear for everyone to see that you put comments up and expect no-one to have a valid disagreement…”

                  Seems to me like they’ve all been reading far too much Peter Hendry, Woodentop.

                  Report
  24. smile please
    April 13, 2016 at 10:54

    Sorry i may have missed it in the massive amounts of comments above.

    The attached contract showing the £50 per branch, it does not specify a timescale and the fee sheet is missing, is this £50 forever or for a set period I.E. until they reach 7,500 members?

    Report
    1. PeeBee
      April 13, 2016 at 17:43

      Hi smile please.

      Looking at the “Contract” it states a £50pcm fee payable from 26 January 2016 – no fee payable beforehand.

      It then goes on to state that once the 7500-branch target is reached – this figure being made up of both Contracted Member branches AND Letter of Intent branches – that they will be invited to enter into a binding Contract under the ‘Standard’ or ‘Fixed 2020’ Membership tariffs.

      The paperwork shown is far from complete, of course – so I can only assume that the rates for those two Membership levels are in line with, or in excess of, those of current Members.

      I’m sure ‘others’ will have a different slant – looking forward already to reading it.

      I love a good piece of fiction… or should that read friction! ;o)

       

      Report
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