More agents, including Strutt & Parker and Winkworth, and now Humberts, have announced that they will no longer be using Zoopla when OnTheMarket launches.
Humberts yesterday (December 29) became the latest agent to say it will stick with Rightmove.
Ian Westerling, managing director of Humbert, said: “We’re delighted with the Onthemarket.com proposals and truly believe in its future success. The January launch will be an exciting time for buyers, vendors and agents alike and we’re much looking forward to being a part of it. For us, Rightmove was the obvious portal of choice – Rightmove generates the most leads for us across our branch network and they are committed to providing Humberts with excellent support.”
The Winkworth decision will not apply across the entire network, as not all Winkworth franchisees are members of Agents’ Mutual.
Michael Fiddes, head of agency at Strutt & Parker, said: “We look forward to supporting the launch of the new OnTheMarket.com property portal in January which will offer prospective home buyers a greater level of choice.
“We will also continue to market all of our properties on Rightmove, which remains the UK’s largest property portal.
“Our clients will always be our number one priority, and after much deliberation and careful analysis of web traffic and number of leads generated to our clients, we have decided that this is the best possible combination of portals for our clients.
“Our properties will continue to be marketed on our own website, with over 270,000 visits per month, as well as through the Christie’s International Real Estate website which receives over 212,000 visits per month.”
Fiona Stewart, head of marketing at Strutt & Parker, said: “We have spent time reviewing all of our portal and online marketing plans to ensure that we have the best overall digital strategy in place for 2015.
“We believe the combined digital exposure generated from our own website, OnTheMarket.com and Rightmove, in addition to all of our other marketing activity, will ensure that our properties reach the best potential buyers, both in the UK and internationally.”
Winkworth CEO Dominic Agace said that he believed that OnTheMarket “will quickly become the go-to portal for customers searching for their next property”.
He added: “Those of our offices which are members of Agents’ Mutual will, in addition be marketing properties on Rightmove.
“We believe that these two portals, together with the traffic and leads generated by our own website will ensure that our clients receive the best possible online exposure for their properties.”
Jackson-Stops & Staff, with 44 offices operated by licensees, and London agent Douglas & Gordon, have also announced they are coming off Zoopla.
In a statement on its website, Jackson-Stops & Staff said: “OnTheMarket.com is expecting many more to join in the coming weeks as momentum continues to grow. Its member agents will be moving hundreds of thousands of properties to OnTheMarket.com from other websites to create a unique set which cannot be found elsewhere.
“When OnTheMarket.com launches, neither Rightmove nor Zoopla will be able to claim their property listings cover the entire market because many estate and letting agents will be leaving them to join OnTheMarket.com as the best platform to showcase their properties in the clearest and simplest way.”
* Despite the recent announced departures of several agents, including Knight Frank and Spicerhaart, Zoopla shares have risen on the stock market.
So, Strutt & Parker quote website visits as a prime reason in providing exposure for a clients property yet are denying those same clients guaranteed exposure on Z … ? The hypocrisy of the AM one portal rule is staggering.
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The exposure on Zoopla won't be that great when the majority of people stop visiting the website when agents stop listing properties on that property portal and move them onto OTM.
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Agreed. Then we all move off RM.
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Skip Agents Mutual and sign up to Nest Property App. It's a brand new mobile property search app for iPhone, launching with over 1.2 million properties (that's many more than onthemarket.com) and they'll be right there in your pocket. The product is built for the consumer; easily discover, organise, share properties and chat about them with friends AND estate agents, all in-app. You can sign up to get early access to Nest Property app here; http://www.nestpropertyapp.com
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Its a brave move. Primelocation is very popular with London's vendors & Landlords.
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I'm not sure I do see it as a brave move really Eric. I think that Strutt & Parker have a strong enough brand that if I were looking for a property, I would actively seek out the listings they had. I think agents sometimes forget that RM & Z and in fact any portal, have only ever brought the properties on agents websites to one place. In affect a supermarket of property for sale if you like, however if you want something specific then you still would visit that estate agents site. In fact in a recent survey I saw, 63% of buyers visited an estate agents own website when looking for property, so I would say S&P are well covered in their marketing strategy.
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I see EAT are reporting that Trading Standards may look at early bird listings by AM agents something which S&P a founder member of AM intend to introduce. How is that in any way in a clients interests? AM with it's one other portal rule, early bird listings and anti-online agent stance is acting like a tin pot dictator.
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And you say you don't work for Zoopla!! ….How on earth can it be a case for Trading standards to investigate WHEN an agent decides to list which which portal. It is not their right to have access to every property and by listing on ANY portal you are putting the property into the public domain!
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I don't work for Z I am an agent whether that suits your thinking or not. How can it be in the clients best interests to 1) delay uploading to the UK's no.1 portal for buyers and 2) deny uploading to the UK's no.2 portal for buyers?? Take your OTM tinted blinkers off.
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1) Delaying putting on RM will do nothing to harm a clients chances of selling, good agents will be on the phone and not replying on the internet to sell (Online Only agents will struggle with this, maybe that's you?)……………………………. 2) Z is not all that, as a market leader in 4 villages without being on Z (bar a 9 month stint) proves my clients are not suffering, otherwise we would not be number 1, in fact most people I go to have never been on Z!! …… Are you an Online only Agent Harree or a nervous corp?
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*relying* sorry
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Well you are an estate agent that has a funny view of the role of the portals in your business. Particularly Z I might add who is always the one you come out to defend! So as an agent, do please tell me how it IS in a clients best interest to blow all your marketing in the first 24 hours, from a marketing point of view does it not make more sense to control the flow of enquiries? As for the second portal for buyers, they are only their because at this point in time they share the stock with RM, in January someone else will have that position as well. Unless of course you genuinely believe that Z have all these wonderful buyers sat around for months and months just waiting for you to list a property on with them and then they all come flooding.
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So works for Z………. OR has not met OTM criteria……. one or the other…….Or perhaps sunk life savings into Z shares! Either way Harree #otm26.1.15 exciting times 🙂
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Wrong on all points. But if it suits your little mind to think that way feel free and enjoy.
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Harree. Please put toys back in your pram and accept that you are out of your depth and have rather lost the plot – and the argument.
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Then tell me Harree – I currently advertise my stock on Ric.co.uk and RM……….so will putting them on OTM in addition to Ric.co.uk and RM be a good thing or a bad thing for my clients?….. My little mind tells me my clients are going to have "another portal" working for them therefore nothing but an advantage above now come 26.1.15…………………….. and tell me why are the points wrong? In particular my Z comment……………as if Z is so good for clients in my area WHY can I open offices without Z against Z agents and still become number 1?…………………………. Could it be anything to do with: We believe in our brand, ability to get the job done proactively, have great staff and know if you price the properties correctly you wont even need the website as your ready willing and able buyers will be viewing what you tell them to………. you talk/type like a "put em online and hope for the best" type agent Harree….. and that's fine…..I like agents like you, makes my job easier! (in my tiny little mind obviously)
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Come on fella, you bomb in, get challenged and go all wet on us, answer Ric's question. – Jonnie
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What about properties sold to a list of registered buyers before being marketed online? Please bear in mind that property portals are merely classified advertising. The reason AM/OTM exists is because the portals have created the online agency model, which threatens (at least in spirit) the traditional full service estate agent. Rightmove is just a small part of selling a home. Commensurate with the less than 2% of estate agency fees that go to Rightmove (£140m vs £4.3bn earned by UK estate agents last year).
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Sorry, meant to type 5%
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Good news all round then. Why, oh why, do people keep bleating about all this. It is a very simple issue, mainly about removing a dinosaur, or two, from this marketplace and replacing them with a not for profit service which will be better for the clients, the buyers and the agents – except internet ONLY ones of course. 🙂
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Sign me up newsboy , I have 5 branches in Yorkshire . You have said that AM will be better for my clients … Kindly explain why before I part with my hard earned ? I'm sure you can come up with three reasons
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1. With OTM about 95% of your budget will go to marketing, rather than the RM option where 70% goes to shareholders.
2. There will not be any adverts on the site to distract the buyers.
3. There will be no agent's banner adverts to distract the buyers.
4. The site will be very clean and tidy and easy to use.
5. If there ends up with just one site there should be no difficulty with people not knowing where to look.
6. You will spend less on your portal advertising, leaving more to spend on other ways of marketing your clients properties.
7. A site owned and run on a not for profit basis MUST be better for everyone – surely?
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Oh dear lord
1) 95% it's rumoured that Sprigetts salary is £500,000 per annul, the. They have c30 salespeople , 40 developers ( from Springetts own emial newsletter, sent to my inbox) staffing costs alone will be c£5 million , also it's irrelevant to a client how much profit an organisation makes if they are effective in generating leads for me to sell their property
2)who cares, possibly the weakest argument I've seen so far, your really worried about the amount of distraction people suffer from?
3)see above
4)this is subjective and as it's not built yet, how do you know ? Have you seen the user acceptance testing ? Do you know the website mapping ? It could turn out be really complicated, clunky , different for users who have used RM and Z . One of the hardest things to do is to get someone engrained in their ways to use something else .
5) agreed , but OTM stated aim is the exact opposite of this ? Not really sure why your throwing this in as an advantage, also what do you do as a client if you can't stand the OTM website ? Are you arguing in reality that choice is bad for the consumer ?
6) no agent is doing this to spend more or their advertising , one of my friends I chat to about this went to an AM meeting and said when they announced they where going to extra products half walked out . Let's face it, this is done to improve the bottom line at the clients expense in the short and medium term
7) possibly the most damning response to give me three reasons it's better for my client …not every client profits …. Every agent. You failed to convince me why it's better for my clients ….. And they pay my bills
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Yes. I have seen the site and was very impressed at how simple and clear it looked. I've heard the rumours of the salary, but like everyone else don't know and don't really care. I understand they anticipate an annual budget of about £30M which is what it is costing RM to run their site – apart from the £70M profit! Their advertising budget for next year is higher than RM. You can do all this with less agents paying lower fees if you don't take 70% profit. I've seen a preview of the advert – very good. In the beginning I though OTM had a 33% chance of success. Now I recon it is nearer 50/50. I definitely would not want to own any shares in RM or Z.
One other point I forgot to mention – OTM will give your clients a direct link to your website, hopefully driving more business to you and your clients. Why, oh, would you want to spend all your hard earned money on a site which only spends 30% of it on marketing your clients' properties. Would you run a boiler at home that was 30% efficient?
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There's mention above of 'dinosaur' portals in relation to Z/RM, let's not forget all the dinosaur agents out there incapable of seeing the bigger picture and would rather adopt the pipe & slippers approach and stay where they are. These firms are in for a shock next month IMHO.
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Newsboy – "Would you run a boiler at home that was 30% efficient?" Love the analogy! BUT… sadly it is as defunct as the G-rated boiler you refer to. It's not how much input is needed – it's the output that is the only factor that matters. And as far as the customer is concerned, they care jot not one about how much profit the portals make – just what influence they can inflict to bring about a result. Unfortunately, as we know, customers' (and I would sadly have to say quite a few Agents'…) perception of this "influence" is vastly overinflated, and they are quite comfortable with the status quo. And THAT is the problem we face when trying to swap boilers, I would suggest…
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So far as early bird listings are concerned – what is the problem. An agents job is to act for his/her clients in the best way they can at a fee which is affordable. If RM and Z go, partly because of this strategy, the marketplace will have lost two major players taking millions away from it, leaving the agents with more to spend marketing their clients properties. Looks like a win, win to me, for the clients, the buyers and the agents. 🙂
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The salient word in your post is 'if'. That word is irrelevant to sellers on the 26th Jan.
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But it may well be relevant by 27th!!!
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Think your missing the point newsboy, your responsibility is to market your clients property to the best of your ability. Arguments like the one you have put up that contain sentences like "I'll have more money" show that this isn't your priority concern in this whole thing . And let's be honest , if the nirvana really did happen and there was just OTM where would you invest this extra marketing capital?
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I can think of a dozen ways to invest but I prefer to keep them to myself! How can anyone condone a position where 70% of everything we put into a site goes on profit. I'm happy to defend most things but not that! 🙂
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Google make a 96% profit margin, Apple, 83%… The reason nobody cares , their products are good and people use them ….
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I can choose if I want to spend any of my money on either. RM have a monopoly (Z are useless in my area) which I would prefer to avoid and are making all their money out of my stock and my fees.
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At least OTM will be paying a fair rate of tax for their activities.
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Danny – comments like yours and those of Harree really annoy me sometimes. Everyone who is running a busines has a responsibility to THEMSELVES, and their families, and their staff, first and foremost. The way to gain security for themselves, their family and their staff certainly requires consideration to be given to the likes and dislikes of their clients and customers, but much more than that it requires long term strategic and financial planning. Thats what OTM is about – long term planning for strategic and financial control of our businesses and if you cant see that then you either do not own your own business or you do not plan ahead far enough. Only my opinion of course.
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robin, not sure how long you've been an agent. I spend a quarter of what I spent in the press in the 90's with the portals … What's your point about long term planning ? Are you really suggesting that spending c£1000 on portal advertising is putting your business in jeopardy?
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Rightmove is certainly cheap at this point in time, relative to other marketing like regional newspaper print advertising. But Rightmove have expressed a desire to double their Average Revenue Per Agent within 5 years.
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"Everyone who is running a busines has a responsibility to THEMSELVES, and their families, and their staff, first and foremost"
Robin… you and I have crossed swords once before on this very sentence so it won't come as a surprise that I enter at this point! I'll start, however, with agreeing it – TO A DEGREE. Of course a prudent businessman/woman needs to consider the 'human' aspects of their business, as it is the staff that make the business what it is. BUT – and there are TWO mahoosive 'buts':
1 – same prudent businessperson first and foremost should be considering the potential damage to the human side of their business with every decision they take, and
2 – when dealing in your own stock you live or die by the decisions you make in stocking your shelves. If you buy the wrong beans then your customers will buy the beans they want elsewhere and either you live on beans yourself – or sell them off potentially at a loss, meaning you can't afford to eat. But it ISN'T beans you deal in – it is homes… and more than that, Robin – whether or not you like to think of it you are juggling with THE FUTURES of the current and next owners of those homes. And as those individuals pay for you to be in the privileged position you hold, Robin, I would respectfully suggest that THEIR interests, likes and dislikes need a smidgen more than the "consideration" you mention as an aside. Every OTM advertiser is gambling on public acceptance of the situation. Fact is – WE DON'T KNOW.
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'Every OTM advertiser is gambling on public acceptance of the situation' Basic business rule – trying something new is ALWAYS a gamble. It's all a matter of the size of your balls.
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Yes, Property Pundit – that is a given. BUT, most of the time those that try something new don't drop the 'old' thing like a stone at the same instant – they wait to ensure the shiny new thing works…
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Hi PeeBee – Yes I know it's not as simple as I made it out to be in my earlier petulant comment, and of course you have to get your business model / product right before you can even start to protect it, but some posters on here seem to believe that every decision they make is about keeping the client happy even if this means letting suppliers dictate unreasonable terms simply because the clients like them. Under these circumstances it's sensible to take the opportunity, if it comes along, to move away from the unreasonable suppliers and to create an alternative, less damaging future for your business. Only time will tell if the proposed change in strategy which many on here are making is going to pay off, but I don't like the alternative which is to do nothing….
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Robin – thanks for the response, which I'm pleased to see that you stood back, counted to ten and THEN came back to me with! ;o) It's all too easy to smash away at the keyboard like Liberace on PCP, press 'Submit' and THEN the adrenaline surge dissipates and you're left with a post that reads all wrong (been there MANY times…) and the point you are trying to make is lost forever because someone picks up the bits you didn't really mean – unfortunately that happens all too often. You only have to look at the soapbox I was standing on (which I do from time to time…) to see the Yang to your Ying – somewhere in the middle is a common ground that actually where we would both aspire to meet I reckon. The last nine months or so of debate with my "AM Collective" buddies has been highly enjoyable – for me, at least – and I would say that while both sides have remained firmly entrenched, there is a vague possibility that both camps can at least appreciate SOME of the viewpoint of the 'opposing' side. But unlike certain others who appear from time to time spouting similar objections to those I have been raising over the months (and for clarity I'm NOT referring to those like 'Danny' posting on this thread who receive the standard "You're a Portal Rep" greeting from The Collective), MY stance is NOT one which is potentially masking a hidden agenda. My 'agenda' has been firmly set out here on EYE, and on EAT before it, for years now. Simplyput, I see the property industry as a mahoosive machine. I am a minute cog in that machine – nothing more. I simply want the machine to run well, and make it my business to do my bit to make that happen – nothing more. When anything is flagged up as the new 'Hovis'; when someone shoves a new widget in front of me that proclaims the machine NEEDS it and will run better as a result – I need irrefutable proof before I accept it without question. I guess it's just an overboard form of due diligence on my behalf – but at the end of the day I DO believe that my clients put food on my table so I want to be able to demonstrate to them that everything I do is in their best interests. In fairness, you do the same, I am certain – you just wrap the explanation of the methodology differently. I'm as keen as you are for the whole OTM thing to work – for the same reasons; and for potentially different ones. One thing is for certain – 'IF' OTM succeeds, those like you who back it to the hilt and drive it forward will be THE reason behind its' success. And I reckon those that push its buttons know exactly that.
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'If Rightmove go?!!!'……The only place R is going in 2015 is to its shareholders to say it has strengthened its position as No1 portal, the No 2 portal has been severely weakened due to a 3rd portal setting up that is only supported by Agents who still think its in their best interest to, on mass, support its biggest competition……Rightmove!
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"Leaving the agents with more to spend marketing properties".
I'll ignore the crazy comment about RM going, and go straight into this… Can you tell me how, and on what planet, you can spend £700 per month to generate the same number of lead's as RM provides?
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if Agents had the balls to pull off R and Z, OTM would have generated the same leads as R………and for less than £300!
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Simple really. RM and Z have a monopoly for a number of reasons. 1. The vast majority of agents supply all their stock. 2. Agents supply their funding. Without 100% of the stock their position is severely weakened in the same way as it is if they lose our funding. Simples.
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One other interesting fact is that I had dinner with a number of "non" estate agency people over the weekend and mentioned OTM. Every single one of them had heard of it, ironically mostly through the negative press it had received, which did make me smile, as inadvertently people like Haaree and others on this site, have probably done a better job of marketing the new portal than OTM could of by itself. I did ask all of them what they thought and every one of them said if they were looking for a property then they would without question look at the site!
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"…after much deliberation and careful analysis of web traffic and number of leads generated to our clients, we have decided that this is the best possible combination of portals for our clients." What a load of c**p! Leaving aside the fact that there is absolutely no client benefit whatsoever in moving their properties to OTM, I would love to hear this chap explain how it is possible to do any analysis at all of traffic and leads generated by a currently non-existent portal.
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Where did they say they had analysed the data from OTM? they merely said they had reviewed their leads and where they had come from! They've decided they don't wish to advertise on Zoopla, I don't see why you feel you are in a position to question that. Come the end of Jan 2015 they will be on one established portal, their own website and a new portal that is being launched. Sounds like quite a well thought out short medium and long term marketing strategy if you ask me. And does there have to be a benefit to their clients? Please tell me how it has a negative effect on those clients, unless you genuinely believe there are buyers out there who would only ever want to use Z and would just refuse to look at RM?
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@ haree and Danny……Here we go again!!….Really guys. Just one thing I can't understand as you continue to post factless nonsense……..Why are you concerned about this? You clearly believe that OTM will not be in the interests of our sellers. That being so, when my staff tell them that we will be putting their properties on our own website/social media, and OTM, for the first 48 hrs exclusively, and then on Rightmove after that they will clearly think that is a terrible idea. We will then (like c4500 other branches) not get anything on the market in the new year!!!……..This will lead the way clear for you guys that stay on Zoopla and RM to absolutely clean up whilst the likes of us go bust with Savills, Haart, and all the rest of us that have switched!!. Surely it is in your interests to put a sock in your posts, as that will be in your interests as business people – And real business people actually don't care how other companies treat their clients……only how they treat their own!!……but then, as others have suggested, you don't show any signs (from your posts) of being good business people, let alone estate agents.
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Sorry, I though this was a site for open debate .. Not if you agree with me you work for a portal.. Lalalalalalala I'm not listening to your answer
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wilko, I've said in answer before to the 'why post' question that agents in my area have already nailed their colours to the pro/anti AM mast so anything I post here won't influence my competition. My motive for posting is to put my alternative view to the lovey dovey AM posts. And as for me being a poor businessman … I can just as easily say that of you and all other AM supporters 🙂
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I genuinely cannot wait for launch day. We are going to see some seriously shocked people come Jan 26 , especially the handful of people that in the last few weeks have been roped in to a 12 month contract with Zoopla on the premis of a reduced rate and premium listings. I had a chat with one of those agents who said well "only one agent in my area has announced on twitter that they are signing up"…I didn't have the heart to tell him that of the 16 people (now confirmed to me) in my area who have signed up only 2 have stated so on twitter! Jan 26 is going to a day to remember for many!!
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Crikey, OTM to launch cannot come fast enough and especially the 6 months after. Some of the comments for and against on every OTM / AM story beggars belief! – Some are quite obviously fantasists others deluded and others out and out liars! – We all have our opinions on the site, I think the one or two trolls on here have left it too late to sway people. Lines have been drawn and certainly one side will end up with egg on their face. As much as I am fed up reading the same for and against arguments, it is nice to see that we have so many passionate people in the industry. Can NAEA or ARLA or a redress scheme not embrace this and help promote our industry? Or can agents not set up "Body" to promote agency? You look at the left wing loony Stella Creasy on another story wanting to basically close down agents with just hear say from the public. We must face facts agency is changing (and in some cases not for the better) agents need to fight back and promote our industry, You could argue OTM is the first step in this but we need to do more as just pinning our hopes on a portal is not enough.
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What a nice sound argument.
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Well I have to agree with most of that SP. I think for me what OTM has shown is that as an industry, when agents believe something is going in a direction that is counter productive, they can come together to do something about it. I also agree that this is something that NAEA and ARLA really should tap in to and realise that actually there is a need to be a governing body to an industry not just an irrelevance.
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Do those who purchase property from Strutt and Parker have any cause to even access the internet to find a suitable residence let alone trawl through Property Portals?
I knew things were changing in Agency but I hadn't realised things had gotten this bad.
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Nothing like a bit of self delusion. Typical of the way agents think. Ironic that S&P have decided to drop Zoopla which also means they will drop Primelocation, a website they were one of the instigators of and was once owned by the agents that set it up until they sold out!!!
The comments from S&P about clients being number 1 priority blah blah blah is a load of baloney. The only reason they have dropped Zoopla is to back a portal that they have invested in, just be honest, not that it matters as the public don't read
this. The public, remember those, they are the people who we sell for and help to buy for will now have to look on 3 different sites to find properties, I wonder what will happen then. A good time to buy Rightmove shares I would suggest.
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Your second sentence tells us all we need to know about you – not an agent.
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Wrong again chum. Just an agent who sees the funny side!
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Oh yes, we're all laughing out loud at your jokes.
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Sorry did i hit a nerve!
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"A good time to buy Rightmove shares I would suggest"……Why, Where do you see their growth coming from in 2015/16?
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In visit numbers!!! Not agents you plonker. The more visits the site gets the more valuable it will become, as RM will without doubt be pretty much the only portal where you will be able to find the most property this is the site the public will migrate to. Rocket science
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"In visit numbers!!! Not agents you plonker"…..where did I mention Agents??? …."The more visits the site gets the more valuable it will become,"……..Does RM work on pay per click all of a sudden? I thought it operated by agents paying them (per month) to advertise their stock??….Assuming I haven't missed anything, and am right, I'll ask again "Why, and where will RM's growth come from in 2015/16"?????……Oh, and I'll leave out any personal abuse and name calling (that you seem to like to post) so you can focus on actually continuing the debate in an adult fashion and actually answer the question I put.
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Apologies i wasn't meaning to be abusive, i thought using plonker was a soft form of other words that could be used to describe someone being a bit slow on the uptake. As in 'don't be a plonker Rodney.'
Website value is not just based on the income stream it is also down to its visitor number rankings. Yes it has a good income stream, which by the sound of things isn't going to be to affected by the launch of OTM but the visitor numbers, I predict, will soar down to the fact that RM will be the only portal where you will be able to find the majority of property. Sorry Wilko, but if you think the public will remain loyal and patient to us agents just because we want our own portal you are sadly mistaken. The public visit OTM once maybe twice and don't find enough properties they will go to another and that other will be RM as they will have the most property, which is exactly why even after having spent tens of millions on advertising ZPL still only have a 21% market share compared to Rightmoves 77%.
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@ jmeapps01"Website value is not just based on the income stream it is also down to its visitor number rankings."…sorry, but maybe I'm just not getting it. I thought that the city traded on company profits, not numbers of visitors to site. We know by current declarations that Rightmove will still lose about £500,000 p/a from members that are sticking with Z and dropping them(agreed much less than Z's losses-but still significant). Surely this will put the RM share price down?. Same as Z shares are going to go down further. The only way they can go up is if revenue growth, short, medium and long term is at least forecast-and I'm not sure how they can do that?. Also I believe that many RM customers will cut back on "extras" throughout 2015 and just take base listing contracts. Most, pro and anti OTM are beginning to find out that the expensive extra product isn't really very good value for money! I would be happy (like many others I'm sure) to switch to Zoopla as my other portal alongside OTM if RM tried to hike my fees for 2016. Either way nothing I can see will lead to RMs current share price increasing in 2015. Do you know how they plan to grow, or could plan to grow their income streams, that will lead to increased profits and a higher share price for RM?
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So all those agents who have complained about "being held to ransom" by RM with higher prices etc are now abandoning the Zoopla ship.
What then if Zoopla folds or is bought up by RM and OTM fails to capture the public's attention? Will RM increase their prices even more?
A better strategy would surely have been to support Zoopla conditionally, making it clear to their reps that price rises would mean leaving them. RM would then see the power agents possess. Now they see the power they have over agents who are too frightened to leave them. The opposite intention of setting up OTM surely?
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"A better strategy would surely have been to support Zoopla conditionally, making it clear to their reps that price rises would mean leaving them."….That's exactly what most of us have done with RM !! I was offered a sizeable reduction for 2015 to stay with RM….If they try and increase fees consistently in the future, I'll take all our property that we are instructed on off them as well, and spend the advertising money on something else for our clients. You see advertising companies change all the time…..I can't understand why people think RM and Z have to be the advertisers choice in the medium/long term.
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Only if you think OTM will fail. Remember they now have over 4,000 offices signed up and paid up. Do the maths. OTM might just work.
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OTM will work for 5 years, that is the whole point of the 5 year commitment. Agents' Mutual is also working in providing Agents with a choice and a negotiation point when dealing with Rightmove and Zoopla.
Ian and the board now have 5 years to work on increasing membership; 6700 or so branches is the target that needs to be set for the reps to achieve a Google credible site that properly competes with RM and Zoopla then there is 5 years to make sure functionally it becomes a site trusted and used by Agents and the industry focused public (Buyers/Sellers/Landlords/Tenants)
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I think that is one of the biggest issues for me. AM have 5 years to keep agents to a contract and 5 years to "Get it right" so much is changing in the landscape of agency and technology now. Who is to say AM's offering will be relevant in 5 years? And no doubt the pro AM group will say AM will change but will they or can they if things change at pace. As I have said time and time again, I like the AM OTM concept and theory but now is the time to produce. in my opinion not only do they need to match two tried tested and reliable portals they also need to exceed them……..The hard work has only just started…..
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Not only has the hard work just begun, change has begun too. When we all get to have a look at AM in a month's time it will become obvious whether they have built the base of something new or a slimmed down version of what already exists.
I have a fair idea where the steping stones to the future are placed but quite who gets to jump on them first is yet to be seen.
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AM has a 6 month maximum honeymoon period with non Gold members. If OTM doesn't perform and supply leads it will heamorrhage those agents. Forget the 5 year tie in, OTM has to perform and persuade agents, sellers and buyers in a fraction of that time.
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http://www.danielsestateagents.co.uk/news/brents-leading-independent-daniels-estate-agents-are-one-the-first-to-commit-to-rightmove-and-zoopla.html
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Oh, dear, Mr Henry – you ARE keen to push this in front of people's noses, aren't you? I guess, then, that it be only cricket that I re-post my response to your original flagging up of this, as follows:
Interesting read, Mr Henry. In the statement you say "Daniels Estate Agents have taken the view that the risk to their clients outweighs the saving the agency would potentially make." Truly admirable – I should be clapping my hands and cheering you on, considering my stand on OTM. BUT… on your Tw@tter page, you state "Daniels will be #closed between #Christmas and New Year as usual, and we encourage other businesses to follow suit" So, your clients can be perfectly assured that whilst THEIR Agent (that would be YOU…) is not going to be open like others – who will be responding to emails; answering phone calls; greeting visitors; arranging viewings and potentially negotiating sales of THEIR CLIENTS' HOMES – this is not a problem and that not one of your clients will suffer as a result. After all – your statement claims "“We have looked at the pros and cons carefully. At this time we cannot honestly say that we would be representing our clients best interests if we were to drop one of the two most prominent property portals in the UK”, so I take it that the same process was adopted to reach the decision not to open during the Christmas/New Year period? I would hate to think that someone who states their Agency has "…taken the view that the risk to their clients outweighs the saving the agency would potentially make" adopted a VERY DIFFERENT VIEW when it suited them…
Care to comment THIS time?
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I have to say how much I enjoy your often challenging posts, PeeBee. You do have the knack of seeing the other side of everyone's position and it really can be thought provoking. In fact, I find this forum extremely entertaining generally and it has been quite valuable finding out how others in this business are thinking even if I don't always agree with them…. BTW – we're open between Christmas and New Year as we always find there is plenty to do!
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Why thank you, Robin – I guess I'm just a sponge for knowledge relating to the business. You can't get to the hidden treasure unless you're prepared to get your hands dirty and dig around a bit, if you get my meaning! ;o) I'm quite looking forward to getting back to work on Monday also – I've got four more potential sales that could well be tied up before 2014 with a little gentle persuasion!
Trouble is, if I'm not careful I'll have nothing OnTheMarket in 2015… ;o)
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Decision logic certainly seem unconvincing and against the consumer. On a seperate note, we are launching a brand new mobile property search app, Nest, for iPhone in January. We'll have over 1.2 million properties for rent or to buy (that's more than Agents Mutual!) and they'll be right there in your pocket. To get early access to the app before anyone else, sign up here: http://www.nestpropertyapp.com
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Why you wasting your money? RM/Z/OTM have apps (well I certainly hope OTM have an app) but my point…… why would anyone use your app? just use the existing property portals apps surely………..and talking about against the consumer…..what about all the Android users out there………"decision logic gone astray" surely!…. you are asking people to forget the top portals and use your property app instead…… good luck with that!
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So it's Jan 26th and Im a buyer continuing my search on Zoopla and I notice a lot of property appears to be missing, so I Check out Rightmove and find the missing stock, how do I feel? Irritated. So I'm a seller and a buyer and I notice my agent no longer lists on Zoopla, so next time we speak I ask why and he tells me about OTM, I look at OTM and notice my property is being listed the same way as everyone else, whereas it used to be featured on Zoopla, how do I feel? Irritated. I don't watch telly much and when I do I skip the Ads so the OTM marketing is lost on me. A very nice neg at another agency who has been chasing my business for weeks gives me a call and commiserates with me, he tells me the OTM story from his standpoint and I now feel angry, why? Because I now think my agent has put their interests before mine. This is not about agent power or choice, it's not about whether we need one two or twenty portals, it's about the main principal that underpins agency, putting our clients interests ahead of our own. I realise good agency is about far more than portal choice but there is much more at stake than that and the very nature of OTM makes me question whether I would want to be associated with an industry where they held sway, l hope I never have to make that decision.
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Extremely good point. But this action is in the interest of the client, if advertising costs continue to climb it will increase the cost of operating an estate agency and in turn lead to higher fees for the client. The problem is that the Zoopla expansion was meant to create more competition, instead it created a duopoly where the very agents that provide the content for the portals pushed up fees to unaffordable levels.
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oh please Simon….. we can all write a story like that…….. I had 4 calls last week…………………… from vendors on with other agents wanting to swap, as they felt the "nice chap" at the other agency they instructed was just that "nice" and nothing else about him………………………….. they told me he keeps saying "well we have your property listed on Z and RM, so what is the problem"………………..with nothing else to add in terms of ideas for a way forward or with something different as what they have now is not working…….. I also commiserated with them and explained how many agents just "list on a website and hope"………………….I pointed out being on Z and RM has not worked so far for them and they could not disagree! as FACT is it had not worked, so what would they have to lose…….. (they have been on for 6 months) ……………..So we agreed a change is CERTAINLY better than leaving things as they are……………….I told them about OTM at this point and that such a mass dropping of Z would not happen if that website produced anything good……….and everyone would have dropped RM instead, they completely agreed and understood who would drop something that works so well!)……….. They also agreed the longer a property sits there on a website without being refreshed ie the advertising etc, things start to look a bit "old and boring" especially with Z giving "Hits stats" away and other useless info………………… They were shocked I could tell them about the 2 reductions they had in the 6 months and more so that the public can see this info too!……………. "but we are not desperate to sell they said!…….I know I sighed……..but Z users may think you are and be waiting for the next drop now as well! ………………………. To conclude I pointed out various marketing faults, and numerous other benefits we will bring to the table and these coupled with the exciting new OTM launch concluded with them saying "they can't wait to be with the Ric.co.uk/OTM/RM combo of websites" and understand lots of people will look at OTM out of curiosity so it could well be a great place to be when it is launched…………. they were so irritated and angry when the call started and now they just want to be OnTheMarket with me!……………….. next story to suit please Simon?
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Funny thing isn't it? Some of us here have been having banter / exchange of views on here and the other site that this Sinerock bloke had rocked up from late to the party ( feel free to go back fella……..yawn inducing posts and all that ) for God knows how long now, 7 plus years, my eldest has gone from GCSEs to a graduation in that time, anyway my point is over the years there has been all sorts of press releases that we've seen and chewed over about portals that we're going to be massive, we al, agreed that none of them were, unified and all that……..now we have http://www.onthemarket.com which we ALL agree will be huge but it's split us, despite all agreeing it will be the second biggest portal most of us think that's good but an odd little lot still think that's not all that – second biggest portal in the UK on day of launch and some don't think its a runner, strange boys – Jonnie
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@PeeBee, grammar police etc, you know it's the iPhone, but I apologise anyway – Jonnie
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Jonnie – I'm sure we are no more 'split' than we were all those years ago when we all had more hair and less of it grey. I'd say we've had a blast blowing holes in the chancers and snake-oil pedlars, mon ami – and I'm sure you will agree! And long may it continue! ;o)
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Three corrections, my name is spelt Shinerock, OTM will not be the 2nd biggest portal on launch day and my posts are clearly reply inducing rather than yawn inducing to you at least. I would have supported a proper agent owned portal but not one that compromises good business values to the degree AM has done, I suppose I have an inherent distrust of and aversion to self serving old boys clubs, then again, I have always been anti establishment.
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"I have always been anti establishment"…yes but when did anti establishment turn into anti estate agency.
You may well be in on this issue quite deep but I've no doubt that you feel you are pushing this agenda for what you believe to be the right reasons Simon, but at what point are you going to concede that this is best for the industry. In my view the pros outweigh the cons.
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Paul, thanks for this, it's nice to be recognised as genuine, even if mis guided! Happy holidays
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"…it's nice to be recognised as genuine…"
Amazing things, blinkers – they allow the reader to make whatever they want out of totally the opposite written…
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oh dear, Shinerock, Shiterock, who's bothered.? These weird chaps that get all bent out of shape when they get their name spelt wrong, same lads that loudly spell their names out when checking into hotels etc with their bird looking at them with that 'you **** look' ……Anyway, nothing to say and saying it to loud and all that. Common census is that OTM will be no.2, some odd balls think that's bad, the rest of us think it's good and don't get all puffed up if our name gets misspelt – Johnny
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Actually Jonnny it was my attemt at humour 🙂 one of us will be right, I'm guessing it's me
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Boo Hoo Hoo, someone spelt yor name wrong? seasons greetings B E N A Y!
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Mr Shinerock – "I would have supported a proper agent owned portal…" REALLY? I now see you pretty much heralding the coming of some ridiculousness called Dougie Howser which claims even more ridiculous stats that it has almost 5000 Agents on board yet NOBODY has ever heard of it. Its woeful 'teaser' website isn't even legally compliant. Good move, Mr Shinerock.
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I spent over 6 hours with Rocky Mirza and I gave him an almighty grilling. My scepticism started crumbling when he showed me behind the curtain. Did you see the demo site that only remained open very briefly or the unimpressive teaser page that is currently being shown? Anyway, I have not said Houser will succeed, what I have said that it is using the right business model to succeed where agents pay nothing but provide the data. It's beyond me to say if Houser can deliver Rocky's claims but he is a genius, of that I have no doubt.
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"What I have said is that using the right business model to succeed where agents pay nothing to provide data"…now hold on, some analyst said in June that OnTheMarket will need to spend £100m to reach the same heights of RM & Z, now personally I think the analyst was Misguided on those numbers especially as Co branding and the will of Agents Mutual agents has not been taken into consideration….that being said if the analyst believes £100m is required then where does that put Houser who plan to charge agents the sum total of £0 over the same 5 year period?!
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Mr Shinerock – the "unimpressive teaser page that is currently being shown" is ALL that people have to go on… and based upon THAT offering I doubt the site will sign up even one desperate Agent looking for a freebie site to add to its portfolio. If you'd care to tell me how, based upon a "limited" demo site that apparently self-destructed after 500 openings they have convinced the owners, directors and principals of almost 5000 branches to put their c***s on the Dougie Howser block I'd be grateful beyond limits – I haven't heard a great fairy story for years. Oh – and as far as "I have not said Doogie Howser will succeed" – remind me – you DID start the article with "You're about to miss out on the biggest development in estate agency since the invention of the Camera.", didn't you…?
Welcome to my world, Mr Shinerock. ;o)
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Paul H and PeeBee
The reason OTM needs a lot of money to launch is because they are using old style advertising whereas Houser intends to use a more consumer focused viral method, not dissimilar to how Google got going, essentially word of mouth. They have had a team going round talking to agents for several months, some of the features are impressive like AI generated YouTube videos, seemless integration of Streetview, amazing agents microsites with an agent edit facility. But the real magic is in the use of data, taken from multiple sources like the land registry, Zoopla, and everywhere, this data is used to generate incredible content and organic traffic. The fremium model requires there to be a burn rate at the beginning and no clear monetisation is necessary, the assumption is if you get the traffic the money follows. Rocky is putting £Millions into this, he may not make but the model is right. As far as my headline is concerned, it may not be Houser that establishes this new model but it is coming quicker than most agents realise and being stuck with a dinosaur AM is not smart
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Tap into this, tap into that, sound a toe that it reliant on other mediums to make the business work, isn't that why Agents Mutual was formed??
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Mr Shinerock… you describe this Mr Mirza as "a genius" – one who registered up literally THOUSANDS of domain names when t'internet was in its infancy. Well – he clearly didn't have much of a lightbulb moment when it came to registering a quarter-decent one for his latest plaything, did he – so already your licky-licky fluffing up of the man's feathers is looking in serious doubt I would suggest. But I see in your last post why you like his offering – it harvests data from your pet portal. Is it actually legal that it does that, by the way? Do Z actually know that their information will be used on this new site?
They will now…
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It is a pity this thread will drop off into the archive all too soon as it is a discussion that needs to take place. Over the years it has been demonstrated time after time that £millions isn't the solution to anything in the property industry; one only has to look at the £billion Zoopla to realise how fragile a service industry based on cash rather than respect can be.
I am not a genius Simon but experience tells me that AM is a lot closer to a solution for the property industry than many of the 98 or so portals that I keep an eye on. You are correct on some things you say but like one of those frustrating wooden puzzles the right bits are being put together in the wrong order.
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Robert, you come across like a well informed sensible person, so tell me how can AM be a credible solution when they banned me from attending a meeting I was invited to attend merely for voicing some concerns at an early stage?
AM has missed the point which is that Agents are there to serve the interests of their clients. An inclusive site without ridiculous outmoded restrictions and an open mind about the future could have worked, as far as I can see, the best AM can hope for is to establish a reviled old boys club. Rather than telling me Im wrong I would appreciate being shown why. PeeBee I like the name Houser and I haven't examined the legality of their proposition, it's interesting though
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"I haven't examined the legality of their proposition, it's interesting though" WHAT???
You, of ALL people, Mr Shinerock – he who proudly proclaims himself "…a major dissident voice in the great Agents’ Mutual (AM) debate" (say it often enough and someone other than you will believe it…) has the front to admit that he has't checked out whether something he is positively creaming over is even LEGAL?
You wouldn't freakin' write this stuff and call it a comedy.
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PeeBee please calm down and think, of course it's not my responsibility to verify the legality of Houser in order to set out the benefits of their revolutionary business model. AM Zoopla and RM are all flawed because they demand agents pay a ridiculous sub when the agent is providing valuable data, Houser recognises this fact.
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So…let me get this straight – you make a MAHOOSIVE song and dance about the various possible illegalities of AM – but then state "of course it's not my responsibility to verify the legality of [Dougie Howser] in order to set out the benefits of their revolutionary business model." Is that the faintest smidgen of hypocrisy I sniff there, perchance? Or just you making the rules up as you go along…?
"Calm down and think", you say? Oh, Mr Shinerock, please don't concern yourself with any worry whatsoever that you are raising my heartrate in the slightest – you flatter yourself. I'm positively sub-zero at this point… idling along in first and believe me, you'll know when I change up into second. YOU, on the other hand, are leeching stress like a wake behind your every post and unlike EAT you cannot look back and edit or delete when you spot every Ratner moment (or when one is flagged up, more like…).
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I shouldn't take it personally Simon, not being allowed into a recruitment meeting as an objector with publicly voiced objections is the last thing any head of sales would want. That level of control does not make the project less credible. One only has to read the 'opinion' evident in your post to understand why they would be wary of allowing you in, especially given the likelihood of an uncontrolled message being released through EAT. I am sure that you will understand that relations between the two parties are not harmonious.
I haven't said you are wrong but haven't agreed with you either. 20% of the industry has come together, not as you describe as an old boys club but as a mixed bag of agents with a common agenda, there really are some noticeable omissions from the Club you describe and those omissions preclude AM being anything other than as described- not a cartel or an old boys club.
AM has not missed the point of Agency at all and although it is easy to claim that restricting internet coverage of a property somehow fails the client that really isn't the case; agents have an obligation to find a single buyer for a property on terms and timescale that fit the client's instruction. I am yet to be convinced that delegating property search to applicants is genuine Estate Agency.
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Robert, the use of Propoganda is another issue altogether and one I won't get drawn into at this point. However, you make a good point about agency and it's true that a good agent who barely advertises at all is likely to do a better job than a bad one who advertises everywhere. This fact has been used as a shield to protect the supporters of AM from facing an inconvenient truth, one that stems from logic. All things being equal, a good agent with a better marketing strategy will outperform a good agent with a bad one and here lies the rub. AM ties the hands of its members as far as their clients are concerned in order to further their own commercial goals, this is anti client, anti competitive behaviour, in my book it's not ethical and it's not good agency.
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Sorry Simon but repeating your viewpoint until everyone says "Yes you're right, I give up" doesn't make you right. It isn't possible to split AM and its membership into two entities and make out the AM is controlling the membership and making Agents do things they believe incorrect for the greater good of AM. Every agent has bought into the concept or has been convinced that they have no option other than to join. Forming a triopoly where Agents advertise with a two portals is logically no different at all to those agents advertising with the existing main two portals, Agents Mutual are just trying to change who the main two portals are. Whatever your thoughts are about the ethics and quality of Agency is, that really doesn't matter; individual vendors will make their decisions on a local/personal level and it will not be influenced by the likes of you, EYE or EAT.
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"…repeating your viewpoint until everyone says "Yes you're right, I give up" doesn't make you right." Perhaps Mr Shinerock is keen to follow in the footsteps of a certain Mr Hendry in this respect, Robert? I've certainly never seen him challenge any of his rather 'unique' viewpoints in relation to the property industry over the years.
Can I just say, Robert, that for someone who has taken quite a of flak from The AM Collective over the last nine months or so, you are single-handedly raising the bar of this discussion. It's a pity that, as per usual, NO-ONE from AM Towers deems it appropriate to take some ownership on these threads, thus allowing personal agendae and prejudice to further muddy the already cloudy waters.
Thank you, Robert, for adding professional balance. And compliments of the season to you.
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The beta and roll out phase of the project is simply torrid and those fully involved with delivery will be frustrated by the Christmas and New Year down time so it isn't surprising no-one is here posting to an audience that has already bought into the project. Delivery on the 26th is what they are focused on.
I don't like replying about other posters so making it general, subjects like this involve a lot of opinion and in an industry of stable, extrovert entrepreneurs the level of discussion is always going to be robust with polar opposites always being 'correct'
Seasons Greetings to you and yours too.
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Mr May – I take my hat off to your professionalism! ;o)
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I am not sure professional is the word many would use Peebee but I accept the compliment and thank you for it.
One of the AM member agents, who knew of my time spent on a number of portal projects asked me to have a looked at what has been produced so far and offer my thoughts. As presumably one of the few people to have had look see at OTM without the requirement to be a proud parent and think the baby beautiful I can offer an objective view. That allows me to suggest Simon isn't quite right and isn't wholly wrong either. OTM has more going for it than he is giving them credit for but that said I am not sure AM understand that either.
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"OTM has more going for it than he is giving them credit for but that said I am not sure AM understand that either."
If that be the case, then perhaps AM need to be speaking to YOU, Robert…
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Robert, you are clearly a pragmatist, so am I most of the time but the exception proves the rule. I had equally strong objections to the HIP which I agreed with in principle but not with the abortion that was made of the execution. I also campaigned for years against sole agency agreements until the cooling off period was introduced, partly following the PM's petition I organised. When I started Choices we charged an up front fee plus a reduced commission on sale, the formula was commitment plus incentive equals effectiveness, you don't need a hip when you do it that way! What I quickly learned was a good agent with poor marketing always outperforms an average agent with good marketing, so the human factor overides everything else. However, my job as a manager and business owner is to make it as easy as possible for my people to succeed as well as attracting retaining and developing the best people. Eventually we joined the NAEA then ARLA, we had a dreadful experience with ARLA, they hated the fact we were discounting and virtualy forced us out. We also resigned from the NAEA over their touting rules! So all in all I have learned, as you imply, that being right in theory and or in principle doesn't necessarily mean you prevail in the real world. However, I have never been in at the inception of one of these aberrations before and yes, I do see AM as just that, so, given my nature and background I couldn't help making a stand, especially once Ian did what he did. Now I accept that once AM launches OTM, it's not how they got there that will count, it will be what they do moving forward that will make the difference. If my instincts are right they will be a let down at best, I think their charter is too compromised and I think they probably lack a visionary CTO to guide them into the future but we shall see, stranger things have happened at sea.
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Perhaps Peebee but experience tells me that the ‘Bull’ characters needed to pull off something like AM are the last people who can be told they need to change direction and certainly couldn’t be encouraged into change so the flak you described in your post earlier today was a strong reaction to what was only ever discussion aimed to help but which was viewed quite strongly as criticism…….
Hello again Simon, I did a bit of consultancy work for a character a bit like you portray yourself, like you he understood things, had a huge drive, ambition and determination but was too alpha male to be (Ctrl U) really (Crtl U) good.
I said earlier you had assembled the puzzle in the wrong order, your last sentence about AM needing a visionary CTO demonstrates it. Zoopla has visionary Tech but it is the portal most AM Agents are going to drop in favour of Rightmove and its somewhat hidebound success. Zoopla Tech broke a better and more established portal than OTM V1 which ought to be a clue that Tech is not the solution. The comparison between the Old EAT, the new EAT and EYE is another big indication about Tech.
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"…the ‘Bull’ characters needed to pull off something like AM are the last people who can be told they need to change direction and certainly couldn’t be encouraged into change…" I am sure you are right in that respect, Robert – and I have never 'sold' a single home in 36 years of trying! But I would wager my last penny that in the past many, many people have come to their own decisions that have made immeasurable positive contributions to their businesses following simple conversations with your goodself… am I right? ;o)
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I have no idea where this reply will end up but it is for Peebee. Geeves and Wooster is the answer to that question Peebee. It is not my place to say- Sir!
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Robert, I didn't understand this bit
'Zoopla Tech broke a better and more established portal than OTM V1 which ought to be a clue that Tech is not the solution. The comparison between the Old EAT, the new EAT and EYE is another big indication about Tech'
If tech is not the solution and you are saying, correctly that superior Zoopla tech broke a better more established portal than OTM VI then surely you are contradicting yourself? Have I misunderstood? I also don't understand what you mean by the right pieces in the wrong order in relation to my CTO observation. A great CTO like Alex's Simon is a lot more than a techy, what makes these people the most valuable asset of all is their ability to bridge the tech world with the business world, to translate good business into useable solutions. That's what impressed me about Rocky Mirza in that he appears to be a CEO and a CTO rolled into one, awesome. I have avoided some of the more mundane issues about what makes a portal succeed because I felt as if these details would bore the audience. I knew Andrew Pendry, the founder of Findaproperty very well. PeeBee, your going to love this bit. I had a written agreement with Andrew to buy 51% of FAP, he didn't want the stress of running the business and his staff were pressurising him to sell to them, I pitched Andrew that if I took control, together we would defeat RM and create something great. In the end he reneged, I didnt hold it against him, he sold to his staff for £3M, the staff flipped the business for £6M within a few months and the rest is history. So, in another universe I probably run the evil monopoly, ironic eh 🙂 By the way Robert, I am a bit alpha but I do have great empathy/perception and I am open to reason and will admit it when I'm wrong, which is most of the time
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Robert, by 'broke' do you mean 'launched' and are you saying OTM V1 is going to beat Zoopla despite inferior tech and the same point with PIE V EAT? If so, I think you observation is premature on both counts!
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Like a good puzzle there is no fun in seeing the cheat sheet Simon. I am going to let you dismantle your perceptions and see if you can come up with something a bit diferent to what you are seeing at the moment.
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I'lol give it a go Robert
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I sincerely hope that when ye olde penny droppeth it doesn't do so in a vacuum of denial, Mr Shinerock.
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Sorry to be cryptic but how is your history Simon? If you had a few quid to invest in the tech of the 1830's I reckon you would back the genius of I.K. Brunel over a Geordie coal mine engineer called George. Chances are that sat quietly at the back of the room when the GWR was being planned and investment being sought George would have been laughed out of the room for suggesting Mr Brunel wasn't quite on the money with his project to build a railway to get Londoners down to the West Country and Wales. I am guessing too that even today if asked who people would back, most would still favour Brunel over Stephenson. I appreciate it is a fairly obtuse analogy but it is perfect fit with what is happening with Tech in the portal world right now.
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I probably ought to explain. IK was convinced his 7ft broad gauge tech was the way forward and ended up over engineering a few thousand miles of railway to give the end user a better experience, that of a more comfortable ride. The GWR was a relatively short lived solution that was brilliantly and beautifully engineered railway that delivered comfort just as the customer wanted. The only problem was it didn't fit in with the requirements of the industry. George Stephenson never got the credit for what he created; an industry standard that now dominates the greater % of the world railways. It wasn't the end user that dictated the form of that industry and it shouldn't be the end user that dictates the form of property advertising in our industry. The solution has to be right for those charged with running the industry. When I said earlier that AM stands a better chance of that than any of the existing portals hopefully you will now understand why.
Ian will deliver the equivalent of the GWR but to be viable it has to fit with the whole of the industry, not just the best 20% and his challenge is to work out how to add second and third class carriages to his train and adjust his tech so OTM rather than RM is the industry standard that dominates the UK market. (The Ozzies are in a bit of a Squiiz too!)
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My good lord this boy is dull………..if we ignore him he might go back to EAT – Jonnie
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Robert, I take your point, BetaMax V VHS Windows v IOS the most elegant solution doesn't always prevail, although in the long run IOS may win, or windows may become an IOS clone if it hasn't already. Applied to OTM this suggests their inferior tech may be trounced by a better real world strategy. Although I understand the point now I don't think OTM will overtake Zoopla, or become the number 2 portal probably ever. I see this as three dinosaurs having a scrap with one another while moving towards extinction. Don't get me wrong, this extinction event won't hsppen straight away but they will all have to adapt to survive. So far agency groupings have lacked the cohesion necessary to seriously appose properly commercial enterprises for very long, if at all. AM has done the industry a bit of a favour in one way because it is now easier to negotiate with the big two. My objections are mainly based on my distaste for the chosen way of going about this. I know many believe the exclusivity rule was needed to make an impact, I disagree, I can think of another two more effective ways of achieving the same goal without it but no one asked me, they excluded me Boo Hoo. In deference to Johnie/Jonny I think we should continue the debate off site, email me if you like Robert
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I was actually asked for your email address this afternoon Simon but had to reply I don't have it. Your name came up during conversation about the Rocky Mirza thing you mentioned earlier in this thread, I couldn’t find hide nor hair of the project and no-one I am in contact with knows anything about it. Six hours behind the curtains sounds intriguing! What else can you share about that? it might bore Jonnie but at least three people I have been talking too would like to know more.
I definitely see the world differently to you Simon and would cite the success of independent agency over well funded well coordinated Corporate Agency as testament to the robustness of the loosest of affinity groups, that of facing a common competitor. Ian Springett and Agents Mutual have to be applauded for achieving that single notable goal, not only have they regained the upper hand in negotiations for themselves, every agent in the land can play the same card without being a current member. The results of a football match usually only record the score and the goal scorer. Who passed to who and who shouted what from the touchline, subs bench or crowd rarely gets a mention. They didn’t ask me and would guess Jonnie and Peebee weren’t consulted either, that doesn’t change the win (in this round) for AM you have highlighted.
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Robert, you can email me at chairman@choices.co.uk or if you are on LinkedIn connect with me there Happy New Year to all
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Thanks for your email address Simon, I have passed it on. I am rubbish at Linked in; I’m not a natural networker, the ambiguity caused by dyslexia results in me coming across as either blunt and aggressive or obtuse, verbose or incomprehensible. Eye is as close to a blog or social networking as I get. Very few people understand the job I do and because it is often wrapped up in the cloak of an NDA not much gets out. This down time dialogue with you might have bored Jonnie but I am finding it fascinating. Where you have had a long chat with Mr Mirza I would guess he wasn't able to come up with a guestimate of the value his 'genius' would benefit you. I was up early thumping the calculator and then the keyboard working out from your posts over the last couple of days what a consultancy to you was worth. How much would you pay to find out how to turnover close to £2million extra (annual) from your existing business? This isn't a pitch or a haggle, I am just interested in finding out the value of change to an Entrepreneur like you and whether the biggest hurdle you face is accepting a system that has worked well for other businesses for centuries.
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Robert, you are an enigma! I'm interested in what you say, I think I'm open minded, I tend to take yes for an answer… I can't think who you passed my email in to, another mystery, I look forward to hearing from you, I'm pretty easy to track down, or let me know how I can contact you and I will. HNY
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Happy New Year to you Simon and all the rest of you. There is no doubt 2015 is going to be an interesting year!
It has taken a while for me to think about a reply, not because I am not certain I can help you Simon but because I am not sure you know what you need help with. Everyone else has had a clear problem or need that can be understood and quantified and I have been experienced enough to be able to help.
Hopefully you can forgive me for saying so publicly but while posters like Peebee, Jonnie, Paul H, Wilko and all the rest are showing you no respect there is no point in me trying to help. I say that because what I guess you are after is the rewards (recognition or cash) that comes from being a service supplier to the Industry, it is fine if you want to be a competitor to Estate and Property Management Agents; it doesn't matter how they regard you, you are free to be as alpha as you like, you will be respected for being better and more successful. If however you want to be more than their competition that empathy bit you were talking about earlier needs to be more evident.
In respect of being an enigma, I don't think I am but if being motivated by respect and achievement rather than money makes me so, I am.
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Well put Robert, I am a bit too much like South Park (not fit to be watched, or in my case listened to by anyone at all)! I came to a similar conclusion to your own in relation to being a service supplier to the industry, ironically the money and the recognition combined aren't enough to make me into a diplomat and pander to a bunch of anonymous blow hards who resort to rudeness and aggression when their ideas are challenged. Actually I have tried offering a few olive branches but so far there have been few takers. My New Years Resolution is not to offend anyone, darn it, already broken 🙂
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I am fairly certain being a service provider doesn't require you to pander to anyone. If you as a service provider don't have the upper hand in terms of knowledge and experience you shouldn't be a service provider and with that strength of position you tend to receive neither rudeness or aggression.
There are no anonymous blow hards in the property industry but there are networks of agents, suppliers and stakeholders, they might react badly to being challenged but invariably it is how they are challenged that determines the strength of reaction.
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Look, Simon, you are probably fairly well off assuming you own choices and aren't a puppet chairman / some poor lad that's been given a title by the real owners and it's safe to say you know a bit about estate agency regardless of what you do or don't own but mate, you mix vanity and dullness like no one else, big wordy posts with no core principle or point on here, your 'Chairmans Message' on the Choices website is no different. So, don't be offended just stop trying so hard. You do have a friend in Robert May but I have interpreted his words as a gentle let down / shut up…….take his advice – Jonnie
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Looks like Robert has politely nailed Mr Shinerock's ****, either that or he is crawling up it?
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