OnTheMarket repels fresh attack by online agent Quirk

| Rosalind Renshaw

Online agent Russell Quirk has queried whether OnTheMarket is running out of money.

The suggestion has been totally refuted by OnTheMarket, which pointedly said it will not need to resort to crowdfunding any time soon.

It also said it will shortly be running a big new promotional campaign.

Quirk’s business – which, as an online agent cannot use OTM – has recently had a highly successful crowdfunding campaign.

Quirk said in his claims yesterday: “We recently made the point that OnTheMarket had recently been trying to shift the emphasis away from traffic as it had become increasingly clear how the goals they had set and promises they had sold agents on were totally unrealistic.

“We also stated that they had been buying most of their traffic since launch which was unsustainable given how poor the engagement metrics on their website are.

“The shift away from focusing on its traffic is a clear indicator that OTM (and some of its most vocal defenders) do not understand the role of portals in the property market or the role of digital marketing in their businesses.

“Portals are a digital media channel, a means of connecting consumers and agents, which the large portals do well as they have huge audiences.

“Without an audience of meaningful size, what use is a portal, and if not focused on its traffic, then what use is OTM?

“Interestingly our prediction about OTM buying the majority of its traffic being unsustainable appears to have come true as they have significantly reduced their pay-per-click (PPC) activity recently and have seen a material drop in traffic as a result.

“The data speaks for itself and shows that the majority of visits to OTM are bought and raises obvious questions about the financial health of OTM.”

Ian Springett, chief executive of OTM, poured cold water on the suggestions.

He said: “OTM has conducted a substantial multi-million pound marketing campaign throughout the year and is working towards another heavyweight push in the coming weeks.

“This is to ensure our targeting remains focused on attracting genuine property seekers to OTM.

“Yet again, these Hitwise figures understate what we know are the true number of visits to our website, which are tracked by Google Analytics, a market-leading website tool.

“We would like to reassure Mr Quirk and any other detractor that we are not about to run out of money, and will not be turning to crowdfunding any time soon.”

The charts below, apparently showing Hitwise data, have been supplied by Quirk’s eMoov business.

WeeklyTrafficTable Hitwise

OTM Chart

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77 Comments

  1. Tristramboris
    November 11, 2015 at 06:58

    No surprise if Quirk is right on this one. Hard to see how OTM drives consumer traffic with little or no acquisition cost (they don’t seem to have much of a long tail strategy) and when you’re up against the deep pockets of RMV and ZPG your budget is going to disappear very fast indeed.

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  2. HarryN
    November 11, 2015 at 07:56

    Springett can keep up the pretence that his audience is more focused that other portals, but given many thousands of agents will be looking at his portal every day to check their properties, the numbers above are dreadful. And OTM is more reliant on paid traffic that the other portals, his audience is very likely to be a lower rather than high quality.

    I can only see that they have built up an overweight White Elephant, with an overpaid Chief Exec and a central London office stuffed full of expensive staff.

    The “substantial multi-million pound marketing campaign throughout the year” has been a complete and utter flop and will be matched by another one in the next few weeks as his members see him pour more good money after bad. Surely the next campaign is his last throw of the dice??!

     

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  3. Robert May
    November 11, 2015 at 08:04

    Sorry but it takes a special kind of stupid to even suggest OTM will run out of money. With a 5 year contractual obligation the bills have been paid for another 51 months! OTM has a more certain future in that regard than either Rightmove or Zoopla.

    Mr Quirk advised Chris Wood to concentrate on his own business this week,  with as much respect as I can muster I would suggest he does the same, he’s got 3 year to pull off  some quite ????  (posh word for ‘yeah right, snigger’) projections for company growth and a significant wad of friend’s, family, staff and investors’ cash to produce a return on.

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    1. smile please
      November 11, 2015 at 09:03

      How can anyone dislike your comment Robert?

      Its not an opinion but fact?

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      1. Robert May
        November 11, 2015 at 09:26

        It’s not the comment they don’t like it is the truth  of the comment and me they don’t like.

        There will be staff and investors as well as family and friends who simply do not like me having and showing no respect for Mr. Quirk or anything he says, it’s understandable.

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        1. smile please
          November 11, 2015 at 09:34

          They should engage in dialogue then. Otherwise they look pathetic.

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        2. PeeBee
          November 11, 2015 at 09:37

          You beat me to it, Robert!

          Serves me right – that’s what happens when you take half an hour to finish a post!!

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          1. Robert May
            November 11, 2015 at 09:55

            You’ve got work to do, for me this is as close to work as it gets while I wait for Coding ‘Andy McNabb’ Dobby to finish off Gump on Black Ops 3.

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      2. PeeBee
        November 11, 2015 at 09:35

        Same reasons they will ‘Dislike’ your comment, smile please.

        And, no doubt, mine.  Reasons being:

        1.  They don’t like the truth

        2.  They can’t deny the truth

        3.  Truth hurts

        4.  The simple truth is, pressing the ‘Dislike’ button is as good an argument as they can muster, and they feel all fuzzy inside as a result of ‘thrusting forward their argument’.

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        1. PeeBee
          November 11, 2015 at 10:27

          YESSS!!

          I’m currently a length ahead in the ‘Dislike Handicap Challenge Cup’!

          Bring it on! ;o)

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          1. PeeBee
            November 11, 2015 at 11:05

            New depths of pathetic being reached as we watch…

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          2. Robert May
            November 11, 2015 at 11:39

            Eat my shorts are you ahead!

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    2. the message
      November 11, 2015 at 09:48

      I never dislike any comment. Do have a q though for OTM fans re the “contracts” – whats happened with the companies who have left publicly? are they still paying? have they been sued? if so, they Robert you are right they have a guaranteed 5 year income stream that gives them a great base to plan from…….if not the 5 year deals arent worth anything, at least not to those members who went along with the hype but arent in this up to their eyeballs….

      I am really suprised we havent heard from either camp shouting about this one

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      1. Robert May
        November 11, 2015 at 10:23

        Businesses part with  customers all the time, depending on how that is handled it can be a temporary or permanent departure.

        I stopped  being  software supplier to Richard Martin for a while the initial deal wasn’t right for us or M&Co and we had a break of about 3 years. Second time round the mistakes on our behalf as a supplier and them as a customer had been addressed to the point where M&Co followed me to Jupix in 2011. Sometimes letting a company out of a contract is a sensible thing to do.

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        1. the message
          November 11, 2015 at 12:09

          agree, though your comment above was that they have a guaranteed 5 year revenue stream. I am not so sure

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          1. Robert May
            November 11, 2015 at 13:03

            A 60 month contract is exactly that,  there is a 5 year remit to provide a service so like it or not that is the deal until there is enough motivation to force a vote and change.

            The reason nothing is being done or said about the obvious disquiet, there doesn’t seem to be  an operations director, as such  it is no-ones job to reply to members emails and concerns or face down nonsense such as this.

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    3. Trevor Mealham
      November 11, 2015 at 11:17

      The flaw Robert is that a 5 year contract may not hold up if OTM and its colluding operative AM are seen to be making rules that are anti competitive. As you know we have had emails sent to various INEA agents saying that they cant list with INEA which is mainly a B2B and voice to legislators.

      When restraints are imposed on an open market, not only do agents suffer but also consumers. Lets hope the CMA act soon to rectify AM/OTM.

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      1. Trevor Mealham
        November 11, 2015 at 11:26

        There is more info from the Gov site on anticompetitive behaviour

        https://www.gov.uk/cartels-price-fixing/overview

        Directors can be banned from their positions for up to 15 years. Fines can be 10% of turnover. No two or more entities should collude to restrain unfairly others in a market place.

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        1. Robert May
          November 11, 2015 at 11:42

          Trevor we have gone from one duopoly  10 months ago to two duopolies now, how can doubling the number of duopolies be anti competitive? There is now twice the choice there was!

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          1. PeeBee
            November 11, 2015 at 11:48

            In fairness, Robert – isn’t there now THREE ‘duopolies’?

            And doesn’t that make it SEVEN times the choice available to Agents?

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  4. Ric
    November 11, 2015 at 08:19

    Anyone else had the “Optimiser Product” pitch from RM?

    Not long now, before RM becomes an advertising board for the agents with the most money……! It will be more about agents brand than property very soon. Anyone who has seen the pitch will know this! It is a very impressive product to be fair and to have your brand take over your area locally well why not!…… but how many can afford to double their membership rate?

    I am just deciding whether or not to support RM for ever now and go for it. Seems as an industry we want RM to have the stronghold so if you can’t beat them join em I suppose.

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    1. smile please
      November 11, 2015 at 09:05

      Been thinking the same thing.

      RM is here to stay whether we like it or not. Why not make the most of it. ditch the press advertising, ditch a second portal and go all out on RM.

      Goes against everything i would want but starting to think why not.

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    2. Paul House
      November 11, 2015 at 09:08

      Yep I’ve seen it Ric. It’s a great way for agents to differentiate themselves on Rightmove and you can see why some agents are doubling their spend. Only problem is if we all do it then RM will need to bring out a Optimizer plus next year, then an optimizer gold the year after and would you blame them.

       

       

       

       

       

       

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      1. Ric
        November 11, 2015 at 09:39

        Completely agree Paul…. So lets support it and force the fence sitters into having to pay for it too! I will be happy, as my OTM saving will pay for the best part of the product increases with RM.

         

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        1. Paul House
          November 11, 2015 at 09:55

          I get your thinking Ric, god i’m almost tempted to buy some Rightmove shares, even if only to flip them in a years time!

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          1. Ric
            November 11, 2015 at 10:07

            There we go…. if nothing else, we can then applaud OTM for allowing many agents to drop Z and have the spare cash one day to plunge into RM alone be it products and/or shares.

            If OTM isn’t gunna work, then I’m happy to stick everything I have in to everything RM have. Happy days for me being the most advertised brand locally on the UKs No.1 Property portal!

            If anyone moans I am leading the way to agents having to spend more with RM, then you could always make a different property portal No.1 which does not have products upon products.

            Either way as an ex RM only agent, happy days ahead for me.

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    3. Ric
      November 11, 2015 at 10:55

      So my dislike is from a AM/OTM member? I assume anyone else would applaud my views of spending more for my clients on the No.1 portal?

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      1. Trevor Mealham
        November 11, 2015 at 11:32

        It’s not just down to spend Ric. Importantly, if you did the cbanges you are obviously considering. Would your clients gain better results?

        The Estate Agents Act 1979 which defines estate agents and their work, evolves around an agent doing their best for their client.

        No commercial contract that compromises agents against their clients best interest in favour of a media company can’t be right.

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        1. Ric
          November 11, 2015 at 12:12

          No Trevor they would not in my opinion……. if anything it could be argued:

          Now RM introduce the fear to buy this package means I might! This means I cannot afford to advertise on several other portals as I do not have a bottomless pit, it may mean other agents also take the package and eventually we all agree to charge more, as we are all subject to higher running costs. (only winner RM and Budget Agents)

          At some point there cannot be an argument against “I have to do what is best for my business first“, especially considering my business survives on the success of selling property so both decisions go hand in hand. We focus on doing our best for a client, however to be fair our industry (well certainly most High St Agents) are unique in that if we are not doing our best we do not get paid….

          Fact is products are for agency vanity – Other than the logos next to a listing! They are our virtual for sale signs. BUT other than these, great pictures, catchy write ups, correct pricing and switched on staff, coupled with great customer service is the recipe required to be “Doing your best” especially if you are motivated by the old chestnut that is “No Sale No Fee”

          I go back to, what is doing our best: Every paper, every portal, having a place on the High Street? We all chose what is best for us, knowing this will either be a good business move or not! If you survive 25 years with a good reputation I reckon you have done your best for clients, as without them we would not be here.

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    4. danny
      November 11, 2015 at 12:17

      Hold the phone … Are you saying that if I choose to spend some of my turnover in companies that will promote my goods and services to my customers over that of my competition …. Judith , cancel my afternoon appointments , I need to investigate Regis marketing thing they speak of

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      1. Ric
        November 11, 2015 at 12:33

        Keep up danny – I’ve already signed up to RM Opt package as a great brand awareness deal – Thanks as ever for help with business though….. I am so glad you will help steer me into my 25th year of trading though – Id be lost without you x

        I was simply stating that RM breeds the fear of needing these products! Get a grip if you think RM introduce products to assist your brand and you getting more houses (as the primary reason) if they did, they would let us all have it for nothing first, show us it works and then charge as a product we could no longer live without.

        However by charging from day one, future increases are from your new spend not the old one! It is all about RM ensuring the next 5 to 10% rise is from a higher starting point. I’m all for it now to be honest! Lets crack on with the optimiser package. I have money to spend when OTM ends and the saving through never being on Z are still a plenty.

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  5. interestedobserver
    November 11, 2015 at 08:40

    The issue for OTM in the short term isn’t running out of money, it’s about having enough money to compete. OTM can exist for years on member funding but that’s not good enough. They need to provide value the duopoly don’t. If they don’t, then not only can they not compete but their existence becomes irrelevant.

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    1. Robert May
      November 11, 2015 at 09:05

      That isn’t quite right, it is true that On the market can not compete head to head on the same terms as Rightmove so they shouldn’t try.  On the market does have enough cash  a long enough and secure mandate to out innovate  its main competitors.

      As an affinity group, Agents mutual have a market share of the  property industry the same size as adding  the combined car sales of Ford, Vauxhall and Citroen  together or  that of VW, Audi, BMW and Mercedes. There is about £590 million of fee commission going into the group annually so money isn’t  likely to run out any time soon.

      The big difference is that where Autotrader is the biggest and most significant advertising  outlet for the car industry,  Ford, Vauxhall, Citroen, VW, Audi BMW and Mercedes are not reliant on Autotrader to sell cars, Agents and Agency needs to understand they are not reliant on 1990’s internet tech to reach their target audience; people who sell property, customers not consumers.

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      1. the message
        November 11, 2015 at 09:38

        For once Robert I agree with you in part. OTM need never run out of cash, and it can “bumble along”, but enough to “out innovate”….really……to out innovate you need not just cash (and RM will be outspending them 5-10/1 in product and technology) but also something in the DNA of the business that drives innovation……and thats in OTM….really?…..do they have one single function or feature that is new and different?

        Quirk’s comments are a waste of time, but what is apparent is that Springers made a mistake talking about visitors at all, ever. He has then tied himself to trying to constantly grow them, where this has led to him just “buying traffic” as Quirk says. This is a waste of money and looks to me he has done the right thing in stopping it…he just now needs to work out how to spin this change of direction.

        Maybe he is finally looking at my 10 things to do to win and changing.

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        1. Robert May
          November 11, 2015 at 10:09

          Your 10 things? what’s that all about? the only person I can think of with a list as organised as that is in Spain

          The bit you refer to as DNA is domain knowledge,  a certain understanding of what it is to  sell to, support and respect agents.

          At present they have one innovation un-matched  and unmatchable by anyone; Agents’ Mutual, 27% of the industry with a single goal and focus.

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          1. the message
            November 11, 2015 at 12:13

            and thats innovative for the consumer how??……………its a PORTAL for gods sake, not some divine way of being, its a place for consumers to go and look at properties and get lots of information. It needs loads of people to want to go there, having clever features and functionality, ideally having 1-2 things noone else has….I can give you a list of things as long as my arm OTM doesnt have for the consumer…..its actually quite innovative in trying to turn the clock back 20 years I suppose….

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            1. Robert May
              November 11, 2015 at 12:37

              On the market is a portal, Agent’s Mutual is the innovation.

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        2. Ric
          November 11, 2015 at 10:21

          Totally agree the message in that AM should never have got to involved in a traffic competition with Z or RM.

          Its a competition they would never win this side of 5 years! Unless they had majority stock and member agents could disturb the traffic flow differently. (By that I mean only list on OTM and traffic will change direction)

          It should only ever have been about member benefits, the High Street Industry pulling together and a nice website as an extra which if AM succeeds could actually end up as No.1

          As it seems there is no real ambition for the High Street Agents to pay for a voice to support us (ie we just want one for free) we need to now all look after ourselves. I’m looking forward to the next crash….. and RM increasing fees, I will accept them gracefully and suggest they should have been a tad higher!

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          1. the message
            November 11, 2015 at 12:15

            haha. Its that sort of point I have been making that gets lost in the OTM noise, such a good concept, so badly executed, still time to turn it round, but have to listen and change. But with most people either so one eyed, or in GPL’s case waiting until exactly a year is up before asking any type of question, the money being blown just grows, and the likelhood of toppling R gets more and more remote!

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      2. Rivero
        November 11, 2015 at 10:29

        …but Robert, I understood that competing head to head with RM was OTM’s raison d’etre? If it cannot and should not do that what is the point of it…a niche number 3 (arguably 4) portal which allows it’s members to save a relatively insignificant amount of money compared to Zoopla, whilst at the same time greatly diminishing the size of it’s audience to the properties of it’s clients. What, may I ask, am I missing?

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        1. Digital Expert
          November 11, 2015 at 11:01

          It may be a damp squib, an anonymous damp squib, but it’s an agent owned anonymous damp squib.

          I think that sums it up, Rivero.

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          1. Digital Expert
            November 11, 2015 at 11:04

            OTM agent & defenders:

            “Traffic isn’t important, portals aren’t important, portal audiences aren’t important but our own portal with no traffic and no audience is.”

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        2. Robert May
          November 11, 2015 at 11:37

          You are missing the options it provides, you are missing the control over the service suppliers those options make possible and you are missing the opportunities  that can be launched from the foundation that has been created.

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          1. Digital Expert
            November 11, 2015 at 11:43

            Am I Robert?

            It appears it offers the option to diminish one’s marketing  and audience materially, one’s credibility as a service provider whilst strengthening exponentially the very beast it was designed to weaken whilst having no outward effect on its newest nearest target, Zoopla.

            Meanwhile, it has created opportunities for the very, very few (Savilles, KF, Strutt) that 95% of its members will never benefit from – Country Life, Overseas, etc etc.

            Have I missed anything?

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          2. Rivero
            November 11, 2015 at 11:59

            You have piqued my interest Robert…are you able to provide examples of what those options might be, which service suppliers you refer to controlling and likely opportunities which can be launched from the foundation which has been created?

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            1. Robert May
              November 11, 2015 at 12:38

              My reply was to Rivero not you DE.

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              1. Digital Expert
                November 11, 2015 at 12:48

                Ah, ok.

                Well, the same applies I guess..

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            2. Robert May
              November 11, 2015 at 12:51

              Agents Mutual agents have the option of only advertising on their own portal, when the market  turns quiet they can maintain a portal presence and withdraw  from Rightmove or Zoopla. They have the opportunity of understanding traffic and its relationship to sales volumes.

              All of the service suppliers are influenced and controlled by a block of over 1/4 of the industry, some understand that dynamic, some don’t.

              This isn’t the place to discuss  details of the opportunities available to a maturing affinity group but they exist as I am sure you realise.

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              1. Rivero
                November 11, 2015 at 13:24

                Non AM agents have the option to only advertise on OTM in the future too, that is not exclusive to existing members, just as not advertising on any portal is an option (and similarly unlikely). Regarding the traffic/sales relationship, I would have thought the question of portal spend/sales volume would be more pertinent?

                I still don’t really understand what service suppliers you speak of, or indeed how controlling them benefits members.

                Regarding your last paragraph, I understand and respect you not wishing to elaborate, but I don’t recognise the existence of said opportunities and clearly OTM are failing to promote them in any meaningful way.

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                1. smile please
                  November 11, 2015 at 13:29

                  have a RUMMAGE around Rivero you will get to what he is pointing at! 😉

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                2. Robert May
                  November 11, 2015 at 13:57

                  Indeed they do but at a cost they don’t control.

                  The  idea of an affinity group of agents controlling costs goes right back to 2008 when subscription costs were being jacked up irrespective of transaction volumes or fee incomes, at the same time someone thought it sensible to boast  just how high the profit margins of running a portal were. Rightmove created themselves as the bad guy of the industry, a seriously stupid,arrogant and ultimately expensive thing to do.

                   

                  It doesn’t matter whether it is desktop or cloud software, print or digital advertising, brochure suppliers, any service supplier there is to the industry will be very mindful of the group-think power of over 1/4 of all agent branches and that is the true power of Agents Mutual.

                   

                  The last paragraph doesn’t consist of anything more than what  I believe is possible with cohesive thinking.

                  To Smile Please I don’t mention R4, I proved it works, demonstrated to the naysayers what is possible and that is what I set out to do; prove that  innovation can outperform  imitation of legacy systems and provide the information necessary to highlight mal-practice and false claim.

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                  1. Rivero
                    November 11, 2015 at 14:14

                    But that fixed cost is now simply one of many barriers to growth.

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                    1. Robert May
                      November 11, 2015 at 14:31

                      I don’t disagree and feel a copper and tin level membership is important to driving Agents Mutual membership up  and allowing OTM to become a commercial product that lives  by its own success rather than as a favoured pampered project.

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  6. Rivero
    November 11, 2015 at 09:11

    You can dress it up any way you like, but those OTM traffic figures are a catastrophe. I doubt it will run out of money any time soon as too many agents are either too heavily invested or too stubborn to admit it has been a unremitting failure.

    Ric, it makes a pleasant change to agree with every word…that is exactly what is happening and what will happen. By weakening Zoopla (although only temporarily I suspect) OTM members have simply increased the value of RM products.

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  7. PeeBee
    November 11, 2015 at 09:18

    Thanks, Mr Quirk.  I like your statistics.  They brighten my day.

    Now – seeing as you’re in a ‘giving’ mood, statistics-wise, perhaps you will answer the poser this anonymous troll put to your ‘spokesperson’ on Monday – which still awaits response, in relation to some interesting eMoov statistics for their sales in the last month:

    “…18% sold over the asking price and one as high as 122%.”

    Perhaps Mr Quirk would be so good as to provide more detailed information as to the quoted example – ie

    Property Address

    Date of instruction and initial Asking Price

    Date of Sale Agreed and Agreed Sale Price

    Reasoning for 22% discrepancy between Asking Price and Agreed Sale Price

    otherwise the information is as useless as it is intended to be.

    Thanks in advance, Mr Q. (I’m ever the optimist, as always…)

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    1. wilko
      November 11, 2015 at 09:50

      Could I just add a quick one as well;

      Why do you have the policy of re erecting your for sale boards on sold boards of high st. agents that have actually sold the property…..its happened twice in the last few weeks to us in areas we operate. The sellers used our agency when emoov couldn’t sell the property and they hadn’t asked for the property to stay on the market on both these occasions?

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    2. PeeBee
      November 11, 2015 at 16:49

      Anyone who thinks that Mr Quirk is ducking the question – and I am sure there will be many of that opinion – please note that I have had a Tw@tter conversation with the chap within the last hour or so and pointed him in this direction… so hopefully he will now exert his authority as CEO to facilitate the requested information be furnished as a matter of priority in order to stop our imaginations running away with all kinds of reasons why said information would possibly need to be withheld.

      I’ll come back and check say next Tuesday, maybe…

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      1. PeeBee
        November 13, 2015 at 17:40

        Well… for a little while today I got excited, when a certain Mr Jury advised on Tw@tter that he’d been a bit busy with ‘spokesperson duties’.  Thought that maybe – just maybe – the above questions were going to be addressed.

        Unfortunately, I have been left high and dry; built up by the hint of a promise of action then knocked back down again… my expectations of getting what I’d hoped for shattered.  I even asked nicely.  Thanked in advance and everything.

        Luckily I haven’t PAID in advance and suffered all those disappointments… every cloud having a silver lining and all that.

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  8. danny
    November 11, 2015 at 09:39

    If Mr Springett wants us to believe some other numbers rather than the industry standard hit wise ones why doesn’t he release them ?

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  9. smile please
    November 11, 2015 at 11:07

    Would we be wrong to call time already with OTM?

    It launched with great fanfare and expectation almost a year ago. A portal for agents owned by agents, looking to establish itself as the number one property portal and enable agents to rid themselves of the annual price hike from the dominant RM.

    Nobody thought it would be easy, but a number of agents believed in it, willing to sacrifice money, reputation, time and security of the tried and tested second portal they had for many years.

    The launch was better than anybody could have imagined. over 5000 offices a number of which signed up for 5 years. A controversial premium listing was put to a vote and vetoed. It all look good.

    IS claimed by the first anniversary OTM would be the second choice portal and start to close in on RM.

    But here we are. ….. almost a year later. Disappointing traffic figures, new members seems to have stalled, stories of agents leaving OTM and apparently walking away from contracts. No innovation with a back office system. Deafening silence from within OTM on any real figures. RM has continued to get stronger with share prices rising along with product innovation and subscription fees.

    So what now? OTM will continue until the end of its first year unable to keep its aim of establishing itself as the second portal of choice. They continue to get meaningless non-binding letters of intent.

    What can be the next step ……. in my opinion it will limp on for the next 4 years, during that time it will most likely drop the “One other portal” rule to stimulate membership at the end of the 4 years the best i feel it can hope for is being seen as a necessary third portal ….And costing agents more money than ever …… The opposite of what it set out to do.

     

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    1. Paul House
      November 11, 2015 at 11:39

      It is what it is Smile.

      The problem we now have is that Rightmove are so dominant and the only thing that will rein them in is an alternative and RM know this, so they know they can offer agents the chance to differentiate by paying more money for the optimizer product and agents will do it to not feel left out.

      It’s the inability of agents to fully support OTM that has caused RM to take advantage of the situation, and they will continue to do so until a viable alternative is made available, until then our fees will continue to go up and more products will no doubt be made available.

      I will in the very least know that I tried, in the knowledge that if I did nothing then RM and Z would only of kept putting up fees anyway.

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      1. smile please
        November 11, 2015 at 11:50

        I don’t disagree Paul,

        But i think a little harsh for you to say the inability of agents to fully support OTM is to blame. At the end of the day the offering, management, recruitment of agents has not been up to it.

        Many are like me, they like the idea just do not believe it can be done. It is down to the management of OTM to sell to agents this is possible and this is why.

        Before you dismiss my comments (if indeed you are to do so) or say “I just dont get it” (which i do) there are thousands like me. Surely that means something OTM is doing wrong?

        I have distanced myself from running OTM down, but i would now say i have no faith in them getting to where they need to be unless they change something and soon.

        I do not like it when people bring up wages of IS because if he can delivered what he set out to he deserves it (and more) but the argument is getting credibility. A new start up, not many have a wage let alone a very good one. They are incentivised via shares so they do very well later down the line. There is almost an argument here to say what does IS and staff care? they have another guaranteed 4 years on very good wages. Now i am not saying that is the case but it is possible.

         

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        1. Paul House
          November 11, 2015 at 12:20

          I say ‘inability of agents to fully support agents mutual’ because that is currently where we are at, whether it’s due to wanting to wait and see, not wanting to drop a portal, price, 5 year tie in etc, the fact is that currently the majority of agents have not been prepared to jump and support it. As you say you agree to why Agents Mutual came about as do most agents but the problem is that for whatever reason agents have not been inclined to make the jump and it is for this reason that it will fail if it does fail.

          With regards to recruitment I think your right, we simply have not been given enough information on the numbers although what we do know is that there are roughly 5500 on the portal, but how many have signed the letters of intent and how many will sign up by 26.01.16 (the one year mark) as stated by IS and for this reason it’s not giving any faith to the likes of you and others. This clearly needs addressing.

          I do have to disagree with you though on the part about ‘a guarunteed salary for 4 years’ as I think AM must realise that unless we see results or as GPL says a 1 year health check/update then many agents will simply jump ship and plough all their money into RM and AM will fold over night in the same way Zoopla will fold if OTM get to number to portal.

           
          Personally, I think the debate has moved on now, it’s quite clear that you don’t need 2 portals as Rightmove is so dominanat, the debate now is about who can offer an alternative to Rightmove and their price increases, it’s either Zoopla or OnTheMarket.

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          1. smile please
            November 11, 2015 at 12:35

            It will be interesting the one year mark, personally i think the figures will be poor despite a positive spin put on them but i do not think it will mean too many agents leaving. Too many are in contracts and the majority of others nothing has changed, they still believe in the “greater good” and will continue.

            I think you are right the debate is do you need 2 portals? i think we will all agree we do not. Problem is as we are all in a competitive market we all want to offer the best we can to a client and many will stay on 2 portals because they perceive it gives them an edge in obtaining new instructions. This is the worry that if OTM drop the one other portal rule more agents will sign up and we will all be on three portals!

            The only hope in losing the strangle hold RM have is a completely new offering that comes out (what that is i have no idea) that is so revolutionary and agents and the public see the instant benefits to that we all find RM redundant and outdated.

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            1. wilko
              November 11, 2015 at 13:32

              Smile……….”a completely new offering that comes out (what that is i have no idea) that is so revolutionary and agents and the public see the instant benefits to that we all find RM redundant and outdated.”…………That’ll be HOUSER according to EAT!

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              1. smile please
                November 11, 2015 at 13:48

                Ah yes Houser, what a brilliant idea that was!

                I started a thread in the area earlier on “where are they now” past posters.

                Maybe we should have a thread dedicated to all the failed ideas people come up with 🙂

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                1. smile please
                  November 11, 2015 at 13:49

                  *Arena* – Sorry not area!

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  10. Stevie
    November 11, 2015 at 11:59

    What a shame,Oh what a shame,otm could have been so good, most of the rhetoric has died down now albeit from the staunchest of or most financially tied in and committed of you. above, you all make valid comments good and bad about otm but really otm should have gone in at a cheaper fee, cornered more agents in their initial hit thus holding a larger market share of agents and that 24 or 48 hours (good idea) could also have been a little longer and we ourselves should have been better than all the TV adverts, telling the public about this brilliant new portal coming to the country through a network of agents across every town,city and village but what,where has it gone wrong?

    If you spent half the time promoting otm yourselves than venting on here perhaps you would have half the anti agents on here actually becoming members and each week getting stronger and stronger, I’m sure you get my drift but again I ask,where is your main man to back you up? when you need him.

    I wish you all well.

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  11. the message
    November 11, 2015 at 12:20

    I posted this a couple of weeks ago…v interesting to see a number of people pushing 1 or 2 of the changes mentioned.

    Ok, so here goes, this has been as much waited for as the Chilcott enquiry, and probably will be as long. Please sit back, enjoy and try to make it to the end.
    Context. OTM.
    What all agents can agree on. The concept of OTM is great – a website that allows us to leave both R and Z, and for a fraction of the cost get everything we got from them, with the certainty that prices stay very low, and we don’t allow virtual agents on, thereby destroying their chances of any kind of success.
    I am genuinely trying to be objective here, and I hope that even the most die hard OTM dullards will accept that something has to happen over the next 6 months or so to shake up the stalemate that has settled in, whereby OTM have insuffcient funds to make a huge marketing splash and grab traffic, insufficient properties listed to wow people who arrive, and not enough gizmo’s on the site for the people who are used to more. We also have a situation where R is powering ahead.
    And all the OTM fans can like it or not, but something needs to change to convince me and my ilk to take the risk and join. It would take me the below, and like it or not many agents are in my shoes, a damn site more agents feel like me than they do like you, so stop pontificating and start listening!
    OK, here goes:
    1 Chairman – appoint an independent chairman, experienced player in space, no current affiliations, who can be therespected and independent elder statesman
    2 Board of Diretors. OTM to have c.4 directors appointed by shareholders. Their reappointement to be agreed annuallly by a vote. ANyone free to stand, initial decision made by a vote of all goldmembers.
    The reason for these first two is to put a more sensible corporate governance framework around things – members have the confidence that there is a robust infrastructure for accountability, they can rotate directors on an annual basis, and we lose the stench of rotting flesh that currently exists with a board packed with high end agents, and no independence. The high end can be guaranteed one board seat, given they kicked this off, but thats it
    3 set a sensible 3 year plan, stop making promises you cant possibly deliver. 3 years is a realistic timeframe to move into number 2 spot (and number 2 spot means by traffic/leads, nothing else- ultimately nowt else matters in relation to marketing spend)
    4 charge sensibly. The true value of OTM at the moment is about £50 (I am guessing here, dont have access to enough stats, but enough anecdotal evidence to kno its around this). So charge £100 a month, prices to rise in line wit growth of business. £50 a month is an “investment” in OTM’s success and the future benefit this brings, £50 or more is the value brought
    5 This might mean a reduction in revenues if you cant win more business in the short term. Fine, cut cloth accordingly. Some of this is easy as you stop chasing a short term dream, and part of this is sensible stuff around running a start up more efficiently than now. Again anecdotally, OTM is currently run like a mature business. Its not, its a start up tech business.
    6 DROP the exclusivity clause. a £100 a month fee will be low enough to drive lots of new members, and you have 3 years to catch Z up now, so take your time and do it right. Having a natural blocker on inventory growth is really stupid . Every member can push OTM to consumers and over time the brand will grow, traffic will grow etc, and people can then leave R or Z when it makes commercial sense to do so, not when they are committing commercial suicide
    7 Sort out more sensible packages for the senior execs. Yes, IS should earn a fortune if this is successful, and yes its impossible for him to do that if its a mutual and he cant own shares. But you cant have him (and a few others) taking out the vast amounts they are now. So bite the bullet, ditch the mutual, set up a standard ltd company, give him and mgt 20% between them. Rest is shared out amongst early stage investors, and new shares given fr each £50 invested going forward. Or put a couple of mission aside as a bonus for him/them in 3 years when the targets are hit.
    8 Move the HQ out of london – no reason to be there whatsoever
    9 drop the countrylife deal – there were no initial plans to be a whitelabel partner, this isnt an area we should be going down – focus on the core business, work on a better product offering, longer term brand building and back end services to members, ALL members
    10 ditto with overseas, a total white elephant and a sop to the high end guys – it stinks.
    Now I am not saying this solves everything, but we could have a business 2x the size in a month. Rip up the 5 year deals, offer people new 3 year deals with £50 a month charge for the future success (the investment), and £x a month based on the value generatd, starting at say £50, with regular reviews. Every agent hugely incentivised to drive people to the site, and we cans top worring about these ridiculous short term goals and behaviours that are really embarrasing.
    Cut costs, run it more efficiently, and sort out the corporate governance
    Do all of that, and we will be in.

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    1. wilko
      November 11, 2015 at 13:45

      “will accept that something has to happen over the next 6 months or so to shake up the stalemate that has settled in”

      What about the big new marketing campaign that is imminently due-or is that not “something” as far as you are concerned?

       

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  12. the message
    November 11, 2015 at 14:13

    I dont think it is wilko, I would imagine its the same as every campaign thats gone before. They arent going to “win” by sticking an ad on TV for a few weeks sadly, thats not how you build up a business like this. They may have a small spike in numbers, but that will decline again when the tv campaign stops.

    They need to focus much more on what the consumer sees when he gets there,  some unique features and a lot more properties.

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    1. wilko
      November 11, 2015 at 16:59

      None of us will know where the next campaign will leave the portal but I just mentioned it purely because you said “got to do something” as if the portal is just sitting there doing nothing……..None of us, members or not, are privy to the inner strategy of the company. Members, on the whole, still trust the management.

      What if, and it’s only a what if, the new ceo of countrywide has on her radar to sell Zoopla shares and throw countrywide behind OTM next year with a view to safeguarding Countrywides’ future client data?……

      Why would otm need, after 10 months, to be panicked into a complete change of strategy when the vast majority of its members appreciate it takes time to strategically develop the project? Even if the board were hoping to get 2nd place by year end, and they don’t, I don’t think you’ll see a mass exodus, even if that is what some wish for.

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  13. interestedobserver
    November 11, 2015 at 20:19

    Really interesting perspectives on this thread. I don’t think OTM need to panic just yet but Q1 next year is pivotal I believe. Membership numbers are social proof, results for those members are proof of concept. I still don’t  see how OTM convince a fence sitter, and frankly a lot of smart, articulate  pro OTM posters on here haven’t swayed anyone either. Even those who want, in the words of Mulder, to believe. That for me is OTMs biggest concern.

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  14. I want to believe
    November 12, 2015 at 19:29

    Someone mention my name ?

    oh well now that I’m here

    I really did believe that OTM would get the support that it needed to challenge RM but I am seeing way too much negativity from people that will no doubt be kicking themselves if they do have to shovel even more money in to RM’s ever bulging bank account.

    l really hope IS and his team is taking note of the general feeling of unrest out there and acts accordingly, it would be such a shame for this to fail in it’s infancy when a few slight ‘tweeks’ to the strategy could have many of the doubters on board.

    What would I change ?  –  introduce a lower level of entry, copper, plastic, call it what you will, which would dramatically increase membership and bring in all the ‘letter of intenter’s’ by doing so would increase the amount of properties on the portal and increase the traffic to the portal making it number 2 and hot on the heels of RM pretty much overnight.

     

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    1. PeeBee
      November 13, 2015 at 08:49

      Iwtb – the level of Agents you are talking about have been referred to many times as  ‘Copper and Tin’ (credit: Robert May).

      Ironically, their weight is worth more than Gold at the minute.

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      1. I want to believe
        November 13, 2015 at 23:45

        I couldn’t agree more PeeBee, Ironically i think it will be the ‘undecided’s’ that will decide the outcome of OTM, and as they won’t get on board under the current criteria I think a rethink is in order.

         

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      2. I want to believe
        November 13, 2015 at 23:46

        I couldn’t agree more PeeBee, Ironically i think it will be the ‘undecided’s’ that will decide the outcome of OTM, and as they won’t get on board under the current criteria I feel a rethink on strategy is in order.

         

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