If Rightmove fees had risen with house price inflation, it would now be charging branches just over £300 per month, rather than the average £967 it does.
The claim was made in a post on EYE yesterday by Robert May, which crunched some Rightmove numbers.
This was his original post:
“If you are paying more than £967 per office you are paying more than the average, you are subsidising your competition.
“How much more than your competition are you paying? Take your monthly subscription way from £1,934, that is how little one of your competition is paying for the same service you are!
“Take £236 away from what you are paying each month per office. The figure you end up with is how much profit you are paying to Rightmove each month.
“Divide £236 by what you are paying per branch and take that away from 1 to work out what your % profit to Rightmove is. An agent paying £1,300 per month is paying 82% profit not just (rolleyes) 76%.
“Take £236 away from the price you have calculated your competition is paying, that is their contribution to Rightmove’s profit.
“If you are paying £1,300, your competition is paying £634. They are contributing £398 profit compared with your £1,064 contribution. You pay 82% of the profits they pay 41%
“House price inflation since the crash in 2008 is 131%.
“If Rightmove had increased its average fee per agent in line with house prices their average subs would be £304 per office per month, giving a profit margin of 29% not 76%.”
EYE’s editor (we’re better with words than numbers) sought some clarification from May as to his sums.
First, the £967 quoted by May is the average rate per advertiser (ARPA) given by Rightmove in its interim report for the first six months of the year.
Readers should note that this is the average for both agents and new homes customers.
The figure compares with an average ARPA of £922 during 2017.
Rightmove said in its interim report that it anticipates this year’s ARPA to be around £80 higher than last year.
The additional explanation comes from May, who told us:
“If there are just two customers and the average is £967, the total,what the pair of them pay is 2x £967, and that equals £1,934.
“If one customer pays £1,000, the other pays £934. If one pays £1,500 the other pays £434.
“Taking off what one agent pays shows how much someone else is paying to balance up the their subs to £1,934.
“It is an over-simplification but makes the point.
“The £236 is 24% of the ARPA, the profit is 76% so the fixed costs are 24%
“The fixed costs do not change, so if someone is paying £967 and 76% is profit, £734.92 is profit.
“If someone is paying £1,500 take off the fixed costs of £236 and £1,264 is profit.
“An agent who is only paying £236 doesn’t contribute any profit, and all their subscription is paying for are fixed costs.”
“It is a very simple illustration to show how the numbers work against those agents least able to haggle.”
EYE has approached Rightmove for comment, including inviting a bylined article, so that we can give its side of the argument as to the price hikes.
If Rightmove was a charity, that’s what they would look to charge. However Rightmove isn’t a charity, it’s a business. When will Mr May grasp this?
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Yes it’s a business, but one which is abusing its privileged position and ******** it’s customers…..the same customer which set them up in the first place
If anything it’s their customers that are the charity by supporting Rightmove’s addiction to greed.
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Less time moaning, more time selling houses and overcharging vendors please.
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Another newbie I see and what a fantastic contribution to the debate…………not.
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Agreed but when you utterly rinse the hand that feeds you there will be resentment and consequence. Having recently been to the EA Awards, I can tell you the quietest stand there was Rightmove’s. They have lost the dressing room! OTM are buying market share and Zoopla are diversifying and I think you will see a very different portal scenario in 5 years time? Every dog has its day!
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A business that continually abuses its position, bullies its clients and fails to provide any tangible data / stats when asked.
Mr May does “grasp it” and he echoes the sentiments of most agents nationally.
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Who are you MaxTemple? What do you do for a living? What is your very early morning interest in these Rightmove stories?
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Wish you all the best with your anti-Rightmove venture. Looking forward to seeing your anti OTM posts in 20 years.
I’ll just kick back in my jacuzzi in Singapore and enjoy my evening. Bye for now.
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It isn’t anti Rightmove venture, it is pro-agent venture. I am simply arming agents with the tools and thoughts to help their businesses survive.
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What a condescending vile little man you are. Clearly here to troll, the door is that way >>>
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Imagine what you could have contributed to the planet in the time it’s taken for you to set up an account just to troll this forum. You must be a legend in your lunchtime.
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Sounds like something DomPritch would do. Boasting about floating around bathing in a soup of other peoples effluence – skin, bum fluff, toe jam and thinking he’s conquered the world.
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‘MaxTemple01’
“If Rightmove was a charity, that’s what they would look to charge…”
B0110cks, Sir/ Madam.
The vast majority of “charities” are run as businesses. They squeeze as much out of every available pot as they can. Handouts… donations… grants… subscriptions… lotteries… begging bowls – they use every trick in the book and then some.
And then what? Their DIRECTORS cream off a sizeable chunk. Their STAFF take their bit. Their COSTS are generally phenomenal.
Charities are the most inefficient businesses on the planet – because those that run them are mainly accountable to no-one.
Make every “charity” a PLC, sit back – and watch the difference explode before your very eyes.
‘Spectacular’ would be the understatement of the century.
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Brilliant debate by the way. Nothing personal, just an opinion.
The key question as an agent you have to ask yourself is… ‘is Rightmove value for money?’ if the answer is yes, suck it up and get on with it because it’s delivering a return on investment.
If the answer is ‘no’. Well, less time moaning and calling people trolls and more time realigning your marketing strategy to deliver results for your business and your customers.
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Brilliant. Thanks Captain obvious.
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After the amount of comments on yesterday’s article. It seems that RM days could be numbered.
PIE is providing an open forum for agents to unite on this topic.
I think agents should not have to pay more than £150 per month for any portal.
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Rightmove is a business, I’ve got that! If it was charging £304 it would be making 29% profit, it would remain in business and so would its customers.
At 76% profit margin at least 6000 agents now have sales registers that do not support their portal spend.
Rightmove is a good business but it is charging unfairly and too much.
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rightmove will no doubt amend it’s charges around the same time we have another property crash. Although I have to say loyalty is a 2 way street I am not sure how many customers will remain loyal to a brand that’s been sucking its customers’ profits dry for so many years.
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I couldn’t justify the annual increases which Rightmove have made, year on year.
In real terms my fees/income have not increased because I don’t just slap a 10% Annual Increase on my clients fees.
So, lets CHALLENGE RIGHTMOVE right now…..
Dear Rightmove,
Please explain to your Subscribers how you justify Automatic Annual Increases of circa 10%…..
We look forward to reading your detailed explanation.
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Dear GPL
Because we can and we know you and every other agent will accept it.
Yours sincerely
Rightmove.
PS for better value how about we flog you our top tier package, a mere 3k per month.
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here we go again….
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£304? £967? £1,934? I think this article misses the point…
Nobody would set out to create a Rightmove type business today (except maybe the OTM guys) if it didn’t already exist.
Agents your listings are valuable. They attract eyeballs and those eyeballs can be monetised in other ways (just ask Facebook).
That’s why we’ve created a free to list portal with integrated social network that will always remain free for agents to list unlimited properties.
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What an odd comparison to make. According to the ONS, house prices (to which traditional agents link their fees) have risen by c.33% in the past 5 years.
Are Agents reducing their fees in line with the lower increase in inflation over that same period, or is it fair game for them to have profit levels greater than inflation?
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5 years ago we charged 1.5 percent. Today we charge on average 1.1
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And you did this because it was the right thing to do for the customer, right?
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I think we charge a fair fee and competitive in a market.
Should I do what some agents do, have 2.5% written into my contract and hope the old lady or client that have not moved in 30 plus years do not question it? Take advantage of them?
I spoke with an agent last week who had 2 listings live on RM and was paying almost a grand with VAT to advertise those properties.
That is the dominance RM have in the market.
Business owners are having to prioritising paying them ahead of putting food on the family table. Is that fair?
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Agents did this due to a balanced market with a range of competitors. Rightmove does not have those natural checks or balances , hence the charge of a monopoly.
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The problem I have with these responses… And I hear you – I am very pro competition – is that you are making your own arguments that being on RM is absolutely critical to running an agency, and things like customer service have little effect.
And this is why national online agencies with lower costs have eaten into your business. You’ve already given up. All you have to do is put a property on RM and it will sell apparently.
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Yes but its not critical from a service or product point from RM
They have a grip on the industry where all new comers must be on RM and those of us that are long standing clients cannot walk away and we have to agree to every single price increase.
There is nothing stopping RM tomorrow telling us its 2k a branch, and we would have to pay it. That is why it is right to report them.
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The Outsider
And this is why national online agencies with lower costs have eaten into your business.
The ‘online agencies with lower costs‘ is far from true. Most of the fees we charge are less than than £2,000 per completed sale. That’s our FACS…..Fee Amount per Completed Sale.
However no Call Centre Lister actually ever declares what their FACS are! By the time you have added up every fee they have received (including large referral fees from solicitors who charge more than normal etc.) and added in the amount of investment money they have spent, then divided the total by the number of sales they have directly completed…… I bet it would add up to far more than £2,000!!!
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Many of them seem to be.
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The ons number you have posted isn’t correct, it is based on a flawed methodology from land registry.
The transaction average increase since 2008 (the crash) is 31%, transaction volumes have fallen by 25%, fee averages have reduced by about 0.2%
31% in 10 years is 2.7% per annum, not much above RPI, by the time the reduction in volume and commission average is factored in there is no justification for a compound 10.8% increase year on year in RM subsriptions, 279% in 10 years.
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Why are you comparing different time periods to me? I talked about the last 5 years, from September 2013.
The Halifax HPI and Nationwide HPI are also around the same mark as the ONS. Are you saying that everyone is wrong?
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When land registry told Ros Renshaw I didn’t understand the data, it turns out I did, the ONS house price index got amended (see stories whhoops we got it wrong)
Each month I download the land resgistry data, clean out the errors and duplications and have an accurate average for all transactions broken down by outcode.
ONS numbers are based on about 36% of transactions, Halifax and Nationwide look at goodness knows what. all 3 are unreliable averages when calculating numbers that are reliant on known averages.
I can add up all the transactions in a period and divide by the number of transactions, that gives a transaction average. As agents get paid on transactions that is a reasonable base for discussion.
The HP crash was 10 years ago and that is a reasonable starting point for the basis of a long term comparable rather than the arbitary 5 years you have chosen.
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Did you know that in the past 3 years, the cheapest price for the latest model of the iPhone has increased by about 300%?
And yet people who have a choice still buy their product.
So weird that Apple aren’t using inflation as a basis for their price increases. They would be far more successful if they were!
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Difference you have a choice to buy an iPhone or not.
My business would go under unless the majority of local agents left RM same time I did.
RM know this which is why they have an unfair grip on the market.
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You have a choice. You just aren’t weighing up the benefits of being on RM.
Your business may be entirely dependent on them, but you probably still spend less on them per month than you were on print advertising 10 years ago. Why aren’t you looking at it from this perspective? Think of how much you could have been spending if RM didn’t exist!
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RM produce very little in the 2018 landscape.
THE ONLY reason we are on it along with 99% of other agents is the fear of being the first to walk away other agents will use this to grab our market share.
This is why RM has an unfair grip on the market.
We cannot walk away.
You must have seen the numerous reports within the industry portals do not list or sell properties. It is still very much down to staff.
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I’ll give The Outsider this, they’re quite the sophisticated troll.
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Not sure I’ve read such a naff analogy as your Iphone v Rightmove attempt…..
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The difference with print advertising 10 years ago was that we could pick and choose when we advertised. When the market was quiet and we had limited stock levels, we didn’t advertise…simple as! With RM, we don’t have that option…they keep raping us of £1,000+ per month regardless. They are laughing all the way to the bank at our expense!
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I’ve heard that Amazon and Google also make reasonable profits so I imagine no one on here uses them as well?
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iPhone sales have plummetted over the last few years due to better, more reliable alternatives. Sadly the cost of those is now heading to iPhone prices as the companies feel they can get away with it.
Only voting with your feet will make them listen. Sadly, agents are not capable in the main of working together for the greater good, they are out for themselves.
Our competitors would say they were leaving, but then in the background have a big promotion ready about how they are still on rightmove.
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I have taken all Rightmove logos off my website and out of my window. The only ones that are left OnTheMarket.
Looking forward to my Christmas display on RM. All lead photos will be replaced with an image…
“For further details log into OnTheMarket.com”
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JonnyBanana43, Love your idea !
I do think though that RM will be expecting any revolt from the agents and can quickly counter it.
We were regularly threatened by RM to remove all of our properties if we continued to watermark our images or using the same outside photo for the same block of apartments . So replacing them with OTM will quickly result in them being taken down.
I admire any response to RM’s grip over their customers, but not wishing to be negative, I think they are already prepared after reading many of the comments on PIE alone.
A response to RM must be done at a more local level. I do not believe that the larger corporate agents will get involved as I am quite sure their fee is substantially less than the independent agents who are supporting their lower subscriptions !
In this modern age, I do not believe there is a real customer loyalty and buyers and tenants will simply go where the property is listed.
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If house prices have fallen as you say and agents are charging a % of the sold price then “yes”, agents are reducing their fees respectively.
I removed all RM branding some time ago. They came to see me to increase my fee by £250 to £1750 for 1 sales branch! When I said I was going to revert back to the basic package they decided to withdraw the increase due to “feedback from estate agents”.
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£1750 for a single office sales branch…? Are you mad?!
‘Given you’re in Yorkshire, i’m Surprised you haven’t negotiated it down to £750…!
“how much?”
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Very surprised given the comments and how these stories have esculated over the past week, that rightmove have failed to respond.
Their silence is deafening.
Meanwhile they continue to travel the country withdrawing the Essential package and forcing agents into Enhanced as the new minimum, like a bully in the playground.
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As I’m writing this message I’m absolutely prepared to be shot down by the usual posters on this site.
Compared to the interesting and varied industry stories this website usually shares, it’s recently turned into a location for a small number of people to spend most of their days posting hatred about rightmove and how unfair the world is, the worst thing about it is that the people who run the site seem happy to fuel this mob with constantly putting up stories, ‘opinion pieces’ to add fuel to the fire which is just lazy but obviously a great way to drive the comments up and sell more advertising.
If rightmove charge too much then just leave, no one has a gun to your head so grow a pair and hand your notice in, I know there’s agents out there who don’t use it so stop acting like a toddler that doesn’t get their way.
I’m sure the usual suspects will come on here and tell me I work for them, I have no idea what it’s like and how they bully you but let me make one thing clear, If you were my agent I was paying to sell my property and I found out how much time you spent on this website you’d be fired in an instant.
It’s not rocket science, If you’re not happy then leave and stop being such babies
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Couldn’t agree more. If the RM heads are reading these articles they are probably rubbing their hands together and already planning their next increases as we speak. Weak agents confessing that their business will collapse if they leave RM?
Give me strength.
If you really believe you only get instructed because you are on RM then you need to have a look at your marketing plan and may as well close your office and go online only. You have a choice and if you can’t afford the RM subs then look at alternatives of which they are many. Using the invention called a phone is not a new idea, but surprisingly works well, and may well impress a vendor to be, rather than clicking on some emails and awaiting the ‘leads’ to fall from RM. Either kiss, make up and get back in bed, or move on and get a grip.
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I totally disagree that you just accept RM as is or leave. RM are holding us to ransom with a product that was made to support businesses – and now it just bleeds them dry. They are abusing their position and I completely agree they need to revisit their cash cow model and their shareholders need to listen carefully to the business that have paid them well in the past
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‘Seller0169’
“Compared to the interesting and varied industry stories this website usually shares, it’s recently turned into a location for a small number of people to spend most of their days posting hatred about rightmove and how unfair the world is…”
B0110cks, Sir/Madam.
Last FIFTY articles on EYE have included only SIX pertaining to portals – and of those only FOUR have been Rightmove-centric.
That’s NINETY-TWO PERCENT of the articles with bot-all or not-a-lot to do with the pesky behemoth in the slightest. Seems you’re the one with the fixation – not us.
Oh – and what do you do for a living that allows you to sit reading all these articles and posting complete b011ocks on here?
Looking forward to your response…
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We’re seeing a bit of ‘tag team’ trolling on this thread, not seen this since the halcyon days of Dumb and Dumber on the purplebricks threads.
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Morning PeeBee,
A couple of things, firstly I own and run a successful air conditioning company so have a bit of an insight into the business world but also have a few investment properties so find the site useful and interesting, secondly my main point is that although the site has a number of interesting articles about industry / government news, legislation, property levels etc which in the main get 1 or two comments which are always interesting and well rounded, when it comes to rightmove the site goes into melt down with the last few days being a prime example.
You are a prime example of someone who comes on here, shouts everyone else down who has a different opinion to your own, just a thought but were you bullied at school because that’s the way you act but from the comfort of being hidden behind your PC.
Stop acting like a complete c*ck and go and do the work your clients actually pay you to do.
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Any chance you could just stop reading any threads about rightmove and/or purplebricks (the two most popular subjects in the industry at present)? Oh, you’re clearly not an ardent reader of PIE as PeeBee’s identity was confirmed here very recently. There must be an air conditioning forum somewhere you can go and troll surely.
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Sorry property pundit, what’s PeeBee’s identity got to do with anything?
I really don’t care if you don’t like my opinion, I have mine and you have yours but the thing I can’t stand is your little boys club who shout anyone down who has a different view point.
Just to be clear it’s called bullying
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I think you need to get back to your safe space, have a great weekend.
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Seller0169.
Couple of things.
Firstly, I wasn’t bullied at school. Neither was I a bully. I was one of those that stopped the bullies from having their fun with the less-able.
You, on the other hand, come across as someone I may have acted as a shield for. Your hair-trigger defence system has stuck you on DEFCON ONE when everyone else here is warming up for a fun-fight. You need to get out more. See the world.
Stroke a porcupine or two, even.
Secondly, the irony that, at this time of year, your sole purpose is to dish out nothing but hot air is delicious, by the way.
Explains why we’ve never seen you post in the Summer months, I guess…
And lastly, I’d rather be “a complete c*ck” – if that’s what I am – than one with most of its components missing….
…except for the hair-trigger, that is.
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You can’t herd cats just watch them fight and keep hiking up the fees!
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If 3 out of 4 Agents can afford RM then is it not in their interest to support RM price increases to put the weaker agents out of business?
If RM then put up their fees to compensate for the 1 in 4 that went bust. Would the agents left be better off or not?
If Agents are paying £1000 a month to RM then they’re receiving £4000 from 4 agents, if 1 of those 4 went bust they could raise their fees to £1333 for the 3 remaining agents. Those remaining agents would need to sell one extra property every 10 months to break even.
I’m wondering if 75% of agents are happy paying Rightmove and would actually like to pay more.
And no, I don’t work for Rightmove 🙂
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Duck me!
If that is not capitalism at its worst, i dont know what is.
Yes lets put other agents out of business, lets give consumers less choice and lets all charge an eye watering amount because we can get away with it!
I am far from being a socialist but i think your comment shows what a horrid little man you really are.
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Hi Cyberduck
I asked a question last week, you run a proxy which you use to measure new instructions for PB. Do you also measure how many complete, how many reduce, how many withdraw from the market etc ?
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So you’d advocate, as a business, putting your fees up until you only had one customer left who would pay the same as all previous customers put together. Genius plan! Me thinks you need ‘Accountancy for Dummies’.
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“Me thinks you need ‘Accountancy for Dummies’ “.
CRACKING ADVICE, PP. ducky would be a fool not to take it.
Might result in him filing said accounts on time in future.
Send him a bill for your advice (just don’t expect it to be paid on time…).
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Wish I’d put sixpence on the odds you’d respond with a ‘Dislike’, ducky…
…your predictability is predictably predictable.
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Interesting another day with articles about Rightmove. It feels like somebody is behind it 🙂 given the fact that the name of a certain portal is constantly mentioned makes me think… It is true that Rightmove is abusing its position and is not very sensitive to the issues that the industry is facing and frankly arrogant and complecent. In reality any other portal that is for profit would do exactly the same. Rightmove has no choice they need to justify their multiples and £4B valuation. The City wants growth so they have to do it. I cannot imagine what would happen to the share price of Rightmove if they cut prices. So they are victims of their own success. What is next? Portal space hasn’t been disrupted for a long time…
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SmartOctopus30 “Interesting another day with articles about Rightmove.”
I’m sorry – but isn’t this a website dedicated to PROPERTY INDUSTRY news and related paraphernalia?
Whilst it doesn’t nexcessarily tick the “news” box, doesn’t this issue surely come pretty high up the list under the “related paraphernalia” heading?
Quite why you feign surprise is a mystery to me. In the borrowed words (tweaked slightly to suit the occasion) of Basil Fawlty:
“may I ask what you expected to see on a PROPERTY INDUSTRY NEWS website? Sydney Opera House perhaps? The Hanging Gardens of Babylon? Herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically…”
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I have said year after year, around rate rise time (now) that unless you do something about this then next year we are going to hear the same frustrated, angry comments and five years on, here we still are. we left rm and there are several quality agents in Windsor as my competition but with the support of Z and OTM we are doing fine. No longer do agents tell potential clients “ah but they aren’t on rm” it’s old news and doesn’t work anymore! Unless you make that move then quit the moanin and accept the rate rises Oh and Robert, if the costs are fixed then each new customer paying will help dilute rm s costs thus making a bigger profit surely.
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Brokegirl,
As an agency, we did the same a few months ago after careful analysis of the leads generated. When we explained this to our clients, they soon realise that we are the professionals and will spend our advertising where results are value for money. Why pay five times more than Z, when Z generate as many, of not more leads ? We would have happily paid MORE to RM if the leads justified it, they simply did not.
The true measure is when clients are having as more viewing appointments than when we were using RM.
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Hi All
Question: How many of the hundreds of smaller agents which have gone to the wall over the last couple of years may have had at least a fair chance of surviving, had their RM charges been more allied to the size and stock of their business?
Answer: Probably some of them, as I suspect many have their RM subscription as the largest business expense by far, particularly if they work in a location where premises costs are very low or they work in a way, with no premises.
RM may well have some blood on their hands – we will never know for sure. When this kind of behaviour happened hundreds of years ago, the perpetrators were called Highwaymen, the most famous of which was Dick Turpin!
The modern day perpetrators (or should that be perpetraitors) are a different type of business!
“Stand and Deliver your subscription and the shirt off your back and ……………………”
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Bald Eagle
“When this kind of behaviour happened hundreds of years ago, the perpetrators were called Highwaymen, the most famous of which was Dick Turpin!”
There is one mahoosive, fundamental, difference between the highwaymen you refer to and the portals of today.
Messrs Turpin, Duval et al wore masks.
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I’ve taken all but RM signs down and I will take logos off our emails as well today. I’m done promoting them.
fortunately we never had rightmove logos on our boards but I see a lot of companies do that. Perhaps next time anyone orders boards – drop the rightmove advert on them and bump up your own site – or others.
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I’m assuming that now it’s just gone 09:00am everyone will leave this bully boy site and go and do some actual work for the clients who have signed contract with you…..
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I did and I’m back. Is that okay?
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I mostly agree with Brokegirl post #38 above but with the exception of “No longer do agents tell potential clients ‘ah but they aren’t on rm'”.
When On The Market launched there was a series of agent meetings in the Cardiff area that discussed coming off Rightmove due to the 2 portal rule . Its the first and only time Ive seen agents sit down and talk to each other. It was refreshing at the time. Unfortunately those that did leave RM were forced to jump back on in a matter of weeks as they were stabbed in the back with agents using those words.
Agents aren’t brave enough to come off RM in areas such as this as there’s absolutely no consensus/trust/etc.
Agents are now caught between a rock and hard place ….fees falling and costs rising.
At some point agents will have to forego the short termism and deal with these issues after 9.00am . This is more important….
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Careful MarkJ. That sounds very much like you and other businesses were colluding and created a cartel.
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Bang on Mark. Very well said.
‘Same with Zooplankton – I notice Cundall’s; a three office agent in Yorkshire has gone back to the dreaded Zoopla.
Why? I’m sure they feel like they have to to compete with other agents who “might’ be heading back to Zoopla. Mad
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Right move are no abusing their market position , they have established themselves and are charging what the market ( majority) will bare.
The comments on this website have moved from being a non stop moan about OTM and is now a RM moan forum. Agents had every opportunity to support OTM far earlier and that might have kept the lid on RM.
If you don’t like RM’s charges leave….if you dare.
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Thanks for dropping by.
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I wish you were a watchdog13
Perhaps, you would then consider that charging the smaller independent agent much higher charges per listing than their investor backed competition is a recipe for disaster, particularly, when they have to actually complete on a transaction to get paid?
Have we now reached a point where small traditional agents are now paying RM to whip us, slowly, to oblivion?
Robert May has considered that around 4000 smaller agents cannot really afford to pay RM.
RM are everything but stupid.
Perhaps they have a future third-party plan to replace these lost agencies with their own agent initiative fuelled by any decimation of this sector?
#countrywide?
#theperfectstorm?
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Had my meeting. Gosh they are good.
I have gone for the Optimiser Package, purchased some shares, signed a 5 year agreement and getting some training from them.
I hope Zoopla don’t call me, I am feeling weak.
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