Cavity wall insulation: A scandal on the scale of PPI?

| Rosalind Renshaw

Could this be a scandal brewing that might rival mis-sold PPI?

Or is this a columnist with a bee in his bonnet?

Either way, the seemingly unlikely subject of cavity wall insulation has reached Parliament in the form of a debate initiated by a former housing minister, John Denham.

Cavity wall insulation is commonly touted as a home improvement. Telegraph writer Jeff Howell has been warning about it for years.

The subject is important because energy suppliers have been given targets to insulate more homes.

Eye is not a builder nor a green expert and does not profess to be. However, in a previous existence, we edited Build It magazine and had it drummed into us that the cavity wall was originally introduced as an improvement to single skin construction, that the cavity was there for a reason (to stop damp crossing into the inner wall) and should never be filled in and certainly not in areas such as seaside locations with driving winds.

Of course, we could have been misinformed, but that was certainly the prevailing view of the late nineties.

We would be interested to know what agents, who see more properties than anyone else, think.

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29 Comments

  1. smile please
    February 17, 2015 at 07:28

    I have heard this numerous times in the past from surveyors. If it’s true or not I do not know.

    But it has stopped me from having it myself as if it does become a problem it must be a ****** to get rid of.

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    1. PeeBee
      February 17, 2015 at 09:33

      Thing is, smile please, a cavity was put there for a reason.

      It would be easier and cheaper to still build ‘solid’ walls with header course bonding – but we evolved from that even before breezeblocks made it virtually impossible to accommodate such a build.

      New-build ‘filled cavities’ are designed specifically for purpose – that being said we will see in years to come what is hidden in the woodwork, so as to speak…

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  2. Blue
    February 17, 2015 at 08:18

    The problem is not filling cavities, the problem is filling cavities with the wrong form of insulation.  Trouble is the correct material is more expensive than mineral wool and the system has been too easy to manipulate.  A weak system that was open to misuse.

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    1. PeeBee
      February 17, 2015 at 09:19

      Blue – in order for registered companies to install the stuff, it has to have a BBA Certificate.

      That makes it the right form of insulation, I’m afraid – regardless of whether it is blown fibre, foam or bead…

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      1. Blue
        February 17, 2015 at 20:49

        Just because it has a BBA certificate does not make it suitable for narrow cavities or damp or porous outer walls or wind driven rain areas or properties without a dpc or in a flood risk zone or walls with cold bridging.  But the installers seemed to think it did.

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        1. PeeBee
          February 17, 2015 at 22:35

          Blue – you’ve just described 94.6% of the housing stock in the UK.

          You missed wattle & daub; straw bale and cobblestone construction.

          Oh – and of course the good old Wimpey No-fines Homes… ;o)

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  3. Eamonn
    February 17, 2015 at 08:19

    I’ve seen more than my fair share.   Sadly We are in live a time when we are obsessed with Saving energy bills.    This results in two measures, comparing this energy company against that  and insulate the property to the detriment of the buildings long term health.

     

    put simply, mould, distemper,  damp.   If you wanna it insulate it,   Because in the final analysis good insulation means poor ventilation.

     

     

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    1. PeeBee
      February 17, 2015 at 09:22

      Pretty much spot on, Eamonn

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  4. Skipdale Agent
    February 17, 2015 at 08:27

    As a house builder of 32 years (before crossing over to the dark side 5 years ago), and having built close to 1000 New Homes, I can say that cavity wall insulation is fine as a retro fit insulation, so long as the whole cavity is filled. If not then the ‘gaps’ can act as tunnels and bridges for water to come across to the inside skin. Personally I thin you are better off without it. There are other ways of improving energy efficiency such as rendering with insulation render, loft insulation, good double glazing, under floor insulation, condensing boilers and even re-lining the inner skin with an insulated board.

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    1. PeeBee
      February 17, 2015 at 09:13

      “As a house builder of 32 years… and having built close to 1000 New Homes, I can say that cavity wall insulation is fine as a retro fit insulation, so long as the whole cavity is filled.”

      ‘Skipdale Agent’ – as a New Homes defector also, with being involved in the sales of over 2500 under my belt and a technical background to fall back on (knowing full well the difference between a bargeboard and a Bison beam and all components between them…), I would argue that point to the death.

      Here’s my starter for 10, just to get our teeth into.  How can the installer possibly ensure that “the whole cavity is filled”?

      Welcome, by the way – look forward to your future input on other articles… ;o)

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      1. wilko
        February 17, 2015 at 09:32

        “possibly ensure that “the whole cavity is filled”?”….Wouldn’t it start coming out of the hole you’ve made?

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        1. PeeBee
          February 17, 2015 at 12:22

          Nah, wilko – when the rooftiles start to lift – THEN it’s full! ;o)

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          1. wilko
            February 17, 2015 at 13:22

            Brilliant, just choked on my lemsip!

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            1. PeeBee
              February 17, 2015 at 15:36

              You know me, wilko… my aim is always to please! ;o)

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  5. wilko
    February 17, 2015 at 09:30

    One of the main issues with this is the EPC’s……The Energy Assessor inputs firstly if the wall is cavity and secondly if it has been filled. If it is the latter then a recommendation to fill is applied-far too simple. The thing is there are so many different forms of cavity construction (dating from the early 1900’s) and it is NOT suitable for all types of property. Apart from anything else some cavity built properties are listed and therefore cavity filling is not allowed.

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    1. PeeBee
      February 17, 2015 at 09:37

      Came across one recently, wilko – a mid-80s Wimpey timber frame jobby where the DEA recommended the installation of CWI on the EPC!

      White Van Man strikes again… in a town near you! ;o)

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    2. smile please
      February 17, 2015 at 11:28

      That’s assuming the DEA even knows if there is cavity wall insulation at all! – Don’t know about your part of the world but our DEA’s are awful (we have tried many!) just tend to assume everything (to the negative) than actually inspect!

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      1. PeeBee
        February 17, 2015 at 12:19

        Well they’re all in for a hard landing if they’re audited, SP!

        In the case I have just highlighted, the DEA would as part of his “inspection” have been into the loft area – where the gables on the firestop is clearly visible – in this instance ply sheeting that forms the skin of the wall.  You are right – in this instance the DEA is woefully inadequate in terms of competence – but I have had a recent reversal of this – a surveyor on a full survey ‘tapped’ a dry-line-on-breezeblock wall and assumed it to be TF… and then proceeded to condemn the property for having ‘inappropriate’ CWI installed which he said would lead to disintegration of the load-bearing walls.

        Took a 5 minute site inspection with the chap to point out his inaccurate assumption – but that was after three days of coaxing the prospective buyer down from the ceiling…

        Beggars belief, sometimes – dunnit! ;o)

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        1. smile please
          February 17, 2015 at 12:42

          Latest one we had was a first floor added to a bungalow in last 18 months (planning permission etc all ticked off). The DEA would not say it had insulation (even though part of planning) as he could not see 100% that it had!

          Also had cavity wall insulation, but said unless he drilled a hole to see wold not confirm!!! – Needless to say he is not doing anymore for us.

          Its all a farce anyway, EPC’s are pointless!

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          1. wilko
            February 17, 2015 at 13:32

            Wouldn’t go as far as to say they are useless as the info they were designed to display is of importance if you want to save money on energy in the property you choose to buy. Problem is, the current epc doesn’t reflect the energy efficiency clearly or accurately. This coupled with no guidelines by gov. or agents means no one cares so they are rendered pointless. People might take the issues more seriously if the surveyor pointed them out on a section of the survey.

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            1. smile please
              February 17, 2015 at 14:02

              Have you ever had a purchaser request to see the EPC or had any impact on their offer?

              As with a lot of things sounds great in theory but if you are spending however many hundreds of thousands of pounds on a property are you worried about an extra couple hundred pounds a year to run it?

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            2. PeeBee
              February 17, 2015 at 15:32

              So… I guess we can take it as read you’re a DEA then, wilko…! ;o)

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              1. smile please
                February 17, 2015 at 16:26

                Ha ha maybe he is! – but still a good agent  😉

                I have looked into training staff up as DEA’s as they are so poor in this part of the world but the cost to do it compared to the cost of an EPC makes it not worth while.

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                1. wilko
                  February 17, 2015 at 17:44

                  I did do it around 2007 crash (took me about 3 days to do the course and exams all in!) I did the epcs and a local solicitor did the legal docs so we had our own in house HIPS without having to pander to 3rd party hangers on…..Whist doing an epc I found it helpful to talk to the vendors and see what they thought of the agency service they received from staff and branches and it was good to provide an in house package of hip,epc,conveyancing etc. Helped us out a lot at the time. As soon as hips was kicked into touch I never did another one. The inspections used to take me 10 mins max and I only did floorplans and case notes retrospectively if they audited one(they would request a few a year). There is no way on earth I would recommend you train your staff to do it, however bad the local deas are……takes way too much time for the possible benefits / monetary or otherwise. Having said that it is such an easy thing to do if you are already at a property and will take your guys less time than the photographs!

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  6. Neilw
    February 17, 2015 at 09:50

    A lot of people start filling cavities on the basis they assume the are completely clear in the first instance. Most installers were not around when “brickies” were on “peace time” rates and therefore the last thing on their minds was cleaning mortar droppings etc  from the cavity and ensuring wall tiles fitted correctly. Insulation creates a natural bridge for these latent defects.

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  7. Robin
    February 17, 2015 at 12:38

    To link one article with another – if the the level of experience and technical knowledge being expressed on this thread is indicative of our industry in general, those new on-line kids on the block had better be able to understand and advise on such issues if they ever hope to match the value for money which high street agents can offer.  The experience PeeBee brought to his clients transaction was all free of charge at the point of delivery – presuming no-sale, no-fee applies – and I would like to think that is just one example of sales progression among hundreds of thousands every week by which estate agents add value to their service.

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    1. RealAgent
      February 17, 2015 at 14:12

      I was just about to post exactly the same comment Robin.

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    2. PeeBee
      February 18, 2015 at 23:57

      Awww, shucks, guys – it were nuffin’… ;o)

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  8. davesmith9090909
    August 31, 2015 at 08:28

    I had cavity wall insulation installed and then suffered three years of mould, damp and condensation. CIGA and the installer did not want to know and said the issue were nothing to do with CWI.

    Two independent reports later said it should never have been installed and it was extracted. The installer refused to reply to a complaint over 7 months and then settled out of court. This will be the next big problem, as I talk to many who have had issues since retrofit mis-selling. This is the result of CWI mis-selling: youtube.com/watch?v=otl_EAH-1K8

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