Yesterday EYE was contacted by a firm of estate agents who say that, apparently, as a policy Countrywide surveyors are no longer picking up keys from estate agents offices.
They told us:
“We have today been contacted by Countrywide surveyors requesting access to a property we are selling.
“We advised them we held keys and they were welcome to collect them from the office and return to us (as has been the norm for the last goodness know how many decades).
“We were advised this is not possible as Countrywide are no longer collecting keys from estate agents.
“When I challenged why this was it is because they need to ensure the surveyors can do X number of valuations per day and one of the ways to ensure this was to make them as time efficient as possible.
“My response was – hire more staff or bring staff back from furlough, do not expect estate agents to pick up your slack.
“I have offered my staff to attend the property for a £150.00 admin fee payable by Countrywide (strangely they did not take us up on this option)
“The reason for bringing it to the attention of estate agents is we need to make a stand against this behaviour from Countrywide.
“They say this is just the process at this time and may change going forward but my fear is if agents accept this now it will become the norm and we will lose hundreds of unpaid hours over the course of a year allowing access to Countrywide and potentially other firms of surveyors.
“My advice to other estate agents is, if Countrywide (or any other firm of surveyors) ask you to meet them at a property to allow access you advise them this is not possible unless they pay an administrative fee for the time taken.”
“Additionally we will not be providing them with free comparable properties when they call in the future until this decision is reversed.”
EYE contacted Countrywide yesterday by voicemail and email to ask for confirmation of whether it is now policy that their surveyors will not pick up keys but we had no response by the time of publication. We will update the story if we receive a statement.
If other agents are experiencing this refusal to pick up keys, do let us know. news@propertyindustryeye.com
I think the opportunity to be at the property while it is being assessed and valued isn’t a chance I would pass up in a hurry. In fact I would welcome the opportunity of assisting the process, discussing the valuers concerns and explaining better than any set of comparables can how the parties agreed the price thy did.
Given how much volume one senior surveyor mentioned to me they are having to cope with I’m sure agents helping to put valuations in a priority order is something they’ll welcome.
Yep, happy to collect the keys from you, August 11th OK with you?
I learned week 2 of my agency career; the surveyor, valuer is the person between your sale and your completion. Have some respect help them where you can.
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Alas not many of us have the luxury of leaving our diary clear between 9 and 3, waiting for a call to say they’re twenty minutes away.
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My reply to the agent in the article is as a mortgage valuer I have lost count over the last 25 + years of the number of times I have gone to an agents to collect keys only to be told they do not have them or so and so has them in his/her car and its their day off. Forgetting where your keys are results in lost time + income for the surveyor not to mentin unprofessional and I have never looked to charge an agent for my wasted time but happy to do so if this is the attitude now being taken. I can see why C/wide have taken this approach with Covid around collecting keys involves going into a busy office of 4 plus people with what I have seen so far dubious distancing, practises and sanitation of keys etc. meeting one person on site is less of a risk to me.
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In my experience, there’s zero chance a surveyor will underpin their value based on the anecdotal evidence of a sales negotiator.. Their decisions are fact based and linked to exchanged properties, nothing else.
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When you work out surveyors are intelligent enough to pass exams, dilligent enough to want to do paperwork and happiest when they’re working alone there are some fairly strong clues about their personality.
valuers, surveyors and conveyancers all attract similar comments from agents, one is yin, the other yang.
I’m glad I don’t have to find a solution to this problem but It makes me realise the challenge ahead creating a system that helps both…. factions
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Well observed Robert.
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You’re a surveyor Will? I am working on a something, getting agent opinion isn’t difficult, getting surveyor / valuer input is harder becasuse there are fewer of them and they generally aren’t usually apparent- they keep themselves to themselves.
robert at rummage4 dot com would be grateful for some constructive input.
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Difficult one however, on balance it’s something that needs a common sense approach. Agents are extremely busy too and can’t just drop appointments to attend properties with Surveyors. If the surveyor is delayed it impacts on all. Perhaps agents can try and assist by trying to go along to the property once a surveyor has collected the keys in the first place to save the surveyor some time by not dropping the keys back. If there are any concerns at the time, they could be highlighted back
Most senior agents wouldn’t feel a visit to collect keys as a ‘good use of their time’ and surveyors may not wish to listen to constructive comments from the selling agent whilst they are at the property anyway.
Difficult one on both sides
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I’m not taking sides and can see both. I was talking to an agent yesterday for their opinion about the same project that put me in touch with the surveyor and heard the flip side. The solution is always somewhere in the middle and understanding the challenges everyone faces is the best way to work out what the solution is.
It is far easier to work out how to get the keys to a place and time than resolve the sheer volume of work the valuation side of the industry is facing
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We too have been told by CW they will not collect keys.
We told them we will not meet them at the property.
We are still awaiting a suitable solution.
My staff have better things to do than spend hours opening doors for surveyors.
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So yes get your vendor to wait in as they would with delivery of most parcels! So you think it is alright for the surveyor to spend time driving to your office back and forth and spend time parking etc because your staff have better things to do?
Hey I won’t be popular!!!
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So your staff have better things to do ? rather unhelpful and unprofessional. If your vendor wont take time time off work then tell them there is a charge for attending on the property to allow a valuer access that way every one will be happy. The house is the most expensive thing they will ever sell so if they are happy to waiting around like Will2 says for a £25 Amazon parcel then they can wait for a valuer.
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Dave21 thank you for seeing the other side.
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I’d like to respectfully refer the writer to Peter Rollings’s comments below.
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I learned very quickly as a trainee neg that to proactively offer surveyor/valuers a youthful opinion about condition and value was to court disaster. While some would engage, many took the attitude of ‘ You are a mere estate agent. I am god and I will decide everything’. We had great relationships with lots of them but some were so far up their own ***** they would not listen to anyone.
As for being around while they were doing their job – absolute no-no.
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Not limited to Countrywide.
I had one… we cannot collect but also said; we will be at the property between 9am and 1pm and will call you on arrival so your staff can drive down. (Yeh, we will blank the diary out for you, just in case)
Would not give me a specific time and couldn’t understand my problem with that. Give an exact time and I could work with it. (Be late and we will have left though!)
It is ridiculous and NOTHING to do with “COVID” they are using this as an excuse to negate the need to visit offices. Which I get on some when perhaps the property is miles away from the branch dealing with the sale.
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Why do agents believe it is the job of the surveyor to run around collecting keys? Where does it say they need to collect keys? They are paid to attend a property to carry out and inspection and report; That is it.. Perhaps vendors should take a day off work to permit access? Do agents also think it is not their job to carry out viewings? For many years surveyors have collected keys as it might be easier for them to “fit in” a job. I know this view will not be popular but can someone explain why agents expect the surveyor to collect keys? Why shoud his/her time be used as a taxi service because an agent can’t be bother to provide the service to their vendor? Surely part of the agents job is to do viewings; is that not what a vendor is paying for? If not have the vendor attend. If not why use an agent and not just use a property advertising internet agent? Who is being lazy? the agent for not want to do a view or the surveyor who is not paid to collect keys? I am no fan of countrywide I might add! It is like those idiots who expect others to work outside normal hours because the vendor works during the day!!! Just food for thought!!!! So whose head is up their own BS?
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Because the surveyors give estate agents a 6 hour window of arrival… If they gave an exact time I’m sure we would be more prepared to meet them.
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Berkshire agent. I understand that but there are two sides to this if anyone is fair minded. The surveyors are not paid to provide a key pick up and drop off service. It is the vendor’s problem. For a surveyor he might not know how long each inspection will take so setting firm times would be unreasonble to expect an accurate time. For the agent it is not reasonable to wait around for ages. Vendors should be present or have someone there to let the surveyor do his job. The real point I was making is agents should not expect key pick ups and drop off as a right. The surveyors time is as important as the agents time yet most on here value their time above everyone elses. On here agents expect key pickup/drop off because they deem themselves more important and their time more important with the exception of a few. I don’t mind the thumbs down what it demonstrates is how self important many agent consider themselves to be. More thumbs down please!!!!
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Well put Will2.
All my jobs get a 90 minute appt window by 5 pm the day before and on the day I ring the occupant 30 minutes before I am due to get to the property. I also ring the agent first thing in the morning to make sure the keys are available on the day but despite being told they are, on arrival for keys it is not unusual that the keys cant be found or someone else as the agent has not bothered to check their key book and just assumed they are in the office, so is it any wonder valuers get disgruntled ? Keys are picked out of courtesy it is not a given right for an estate agent to expect the valuer to collect keys but with the attitude some display on here obviously it is. As for thumbs up or down I really don’t care
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How many times to you get to collect keys and find the more mindless have not even got them ready for you and provided a copy of the sales particulars? How many wander off to find if the keys are in there key box to find someone else like a contractor has borrowed them? There are two sides to this
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‘Why do agents believe it is the job of the surveyor to run around collecting keys?’
Because that’s what they’re paid to do?
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Waiting in for a B&Q delivery is more accurate than a surveyor delivery slot!
Who will come out of this looking like the villain, the Agent. The Surveyor knows this.
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Sorry Shaun77 you are wrong and foolish to even think that. The Surveyors job is to go to the property and carry out his work not wet nurse agents. It is the agents job to arrange access for the property and this is best done by the vendor being present so the surveyor can get on with his work.
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My employment contract does not say I have to pick up keys nor do any of the contracts I have with the various mortgage provider/clients, so Shuan 77 please get your facts right first our job is as said by Will2.
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Does your contract sate that you need to put petrol in your car? No, it’s a given, as is collecting the keys so that you can carry out your work.
Shall I ask our vendors to pay for our petrol so that we can conduct viewings? Of course not, it’s part of the job and doesn’t need to be added into my terms of instruction.
Surveyors have always collected keys. It’s the norm. This is clearly a cost cutting exercise on the part of Countrywide, nothing more.
At least traditional agents have an office on the high street. What happens when you’re dealing with an online firm – how do you get the keys then?
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Shaun – your arrogance is astounding and symptomatic of white sock estate agency you will be selling second hand cars soon. Does your employment contract mention petrol does that with your vendor mention that that ? No it does not so your comment on petrol is total irrelevant. We collect keys out of courtesy and to be helpful unlike estate agents like you.
Online firms offer a far better service are far better than an office based agent as they always happy to meet me at the house so that is why the office based estate agents days are numbered.
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When I’m selling second hand cars in my white socks Dave, I’ll be sure to brush up on my grammatical skills before entering into written communications. I suggest you do the same.
However, taking your analogy to its natural conclusion, the sale of second hand cars will not require sales people as it will all be done online… innit
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This would be catastrophic was us.
Busy agency regularly give out 2-3 sets of keys a day.
Would be a massive cost and one I do not believe we should bare.
Not sure where we would find the time without recruitment.
Already short on staff due to childcare and health issues.
Could add a charge in the t&C’s for the vendor if we need to do this. Ultimately for many properties the vendor will give access but for those empty ones!! Also I don’t find surveyors timings great when I have met them it’s often not an accurately timed affair.
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I get that PaulC so why do you believe the surveyor should bear this cost? Do surveyors not have the same day to day problems in running their businesses? Just put yourself in the other side’s shoes. Answer is vendors to be present or pay some to be their if it is not included in their agency fees.
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The solution is to get a Viewber to meet, then close up after. We’re doing it for other surveying groups and it makes perfect sense for Countrywide surveyors. Key handling is the bane of anyone involved in property’s life, ideal scenario is to fit a new Bluetooth keysafe that you can send codes to that are time valid. Part of the changing face of modern agency.
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Well played!
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Typical Countrywide. We refused on the one occasion that they asked. Their surveyor duly attended our office without fuss and collected the keys. Stand up to them is my advise.
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Wouldn’t it be great if there was a business that had thousands of local people all over the country who could do time consuming stuff that hard working Estate Agents either haven’t got time to do or could be using their time much more effectively? For the answer to your problems see Ed Mead’s comment above!
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Every problem has a solution if someone is willing to pay for it. Who will pay for the viewber? Given the surveyor is acting on behalf of the buyer, not the agent or vendor, the cost should be born by the buyer.
Surely, the cost of the survey has to include all elements of it, including getting there and back, gaining access etc. Asking the agent to essentially pay for an element of the survey cost is a bit like an Uber driver asking you to pay for the time it took them to fill up with the petrol needed to take you to your destination.
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Why should the buyer pay for it ? cost of a valuation varies on the value of the house my average fee for a valuation is £140 what is the agents commision on the sale ? in excess of £1500
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Sorry, are you suggesting the agent should pay for the buyer’s survey?
Anyway, using your logic that he who makes most from the deal should pick up the costs (you’ve conveniently forgotten about all the properties that fall through post survey, meaning we get paid nothing) perhaps the banks should foot the bill?
Good luck with that one…
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The surveyors will include in their fee the getting to the property and doing their work but not a double detour to your offices. Have your vendor attend is the simple answer but the vendor might then question what you are being paid for!
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And Shaun you omit to mention all the surveyors time estate agents waste by being incompetent in knowing when they have keys and do not as they are too lazy to check their key book.
Simple solution is to tell vendor they must be there when the inspection is carried out makes your job and mine easier so what if they have to use half a day holiday. With so many people working from home now and likely to remain it may well be less of an issue moving forward.
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They have been trying this on for over 18 months in my patch. We will only attend if they can give a timed appointment. They never can so end up collecting the keys from the office. Dream’t up by someone who once read a book on time and motion and has never done the job. Probably some vastly overpaid consultant.
Mind you when you are only being paid between £70-£80 for each report which one self employed panel surveyor told me he was getting for a report on a property at £300k you can see why they are cutting corners where they can.
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The arrogance of some estate agents is astonishing. It’s the agent making the most money from the sale. Happy to do viewings but not let a surveyor in?? As a vendor I would expect the agent to do whatever is necessary to see the deal through. This post confirms that some agents simply give up once an offer is agreed and are not prepared to do one more visit to the property to ensure the property is sold. Just lazy and arrogant in my view.
Contrary to the common view the surveyors make very little on standard valuations and they have often to do 5-7 a day to make a go of things. Unfortunately some ignorant estate agents have no appreciation of the costs of valuation PI cover and the massive compliance issues surveyors face to even get a mortgage valuation through the lenders.
Some agents really do need to grow up and do what they are paid for by the vendor which is to get the property sold through to completion.
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Shows how little you understand the process.
In your line of work can you work endlessly with a client for 9 months and still not get paid because they decide not to move after spending thousands on the process?
The surveyors, build the cost of collecting the keys from the estate agents.
If we are expected to meet 20 plus surveyors a week at properties, just to let them in that’s another full time member of staff i have to employ.
Most surveyors working for the likes of Esurv, CW or Connells will not even speak to the agent or seller should they down value a property. So don’t start with the ‘Arrogance’ line.
We provide them with comparables when they call up, free of charge.
And if you talk to any surveyor from the corporate surveyors they are fed up having to do 4 homebuyers a day. They say there is not enough time in the day (rightly so). So managements idea is to take that complaint away and makes us poor b***ers deliver them the keys.
Lets face it CW are about to go bust, they are cost cutting and pushing the burden onto estate agents.
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Well put Frostieclaret 87 – Interesting to see the vendor view point but the put down you received clearly demonstrates the arrogance you refer to.
Smile please – shows how little of the process you understand – we build key collections into the price ? utter rubbish. The mortgage provider has a set fee scale which varies on the value of the house for valuations + homebuyers we do not get to charge more for a key collection. We have our own set fee scale for building surveys but again do not and never have factored in key collection.
As members of the RICS we are advised that before submission of any report we are not allowed to discuss the contents of the report or the valuation of the property, the same comes from our PI insurers. If a surveyor discusses the matter before his report is submitted he runs the risk of the PI insurers declining to provide cover on the property in the event of a claim. Valuation apppeals are allowed and can be submitted but these have to come via the mortgage provider backed up with suitable evidence as it is part of the lenders process.
The fact you deride a vendor probably shows why you cant sell houses but does not the high fees you charge not compensate for the odd client you might lose ? It is a bit like going to an estate agent for keys only to find that they are not there and they do not know where they are.
Countrywide going bust yes they have financial difficulties but the valuers I know who work for them are fully booked till the end of August and if they do go bust who you going to get your houses valued by as there already is a shortage of valuers – c/wide 300 surveyors on 6 valautions a day so that 9000 a week nationally lot of work to be picked up and will slow the process down further, but do you really think not picking up keys is going to make such a monetary impact it might save them from going under ?
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Who sets the estate agents fees? They set them themselves. They decide if they want to work on a no sale no fee basis so stop whinging about it. Who sets surveyors fees? with valuations it is a lending body who often take a significant cut of what is charged. Who is most likely to be sued if the market hits hard times? The surveyors as the greedly lending companys try to recover anything from anyone else if the market falls. They would not wear the costs of key collection and don’t even cover travel costs to and from the security address. Many estate agents do not understand and see only their own position.
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She is not a vendor, The public are not aware of this site and do not participate. Given her comments, obvious works as a surveyor or in the offices of a surveyors.
Nobody is asking to speak to a surveyor BEFORE the report is submitted, at times we want to speak AFTER when the down valuation comes out. Which the big 3 do not do us the courtesy.
And i maybe more accommodating on driving to a property opening the door IF a surveyor would turn up when they are supposed to, i am not going to give them a 3 hour window sit about twiddling my thumbs.
Most surveyors, and you are displaying the stereotype perfectly, are arrogant individuals with zero people skills. Who do very little for the role, hide behind a piece of paper which has RICs on it and expect us to bow to your (supposed) superior knowledge.
Most survyours would not last in the ‘Real World’ and expecting agents to drive to a property to open a door sums it up perfectly.
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I can only speak from my personal position and that I am happy to discuss my valuation unfortunately the lender have a strict protocol and that any discussion on value must be via them and in e mail and not verbally over the phone, as financial institution are the valuers client they must abide by their rules or be suspended from their panel.
Zero people skills ? ha your terse instant dismissal of frostieclaret you clearly have none, just remind me how do you qualify to be an estate agent ? took me 6 years including a 4 years honours degree in surveying to become a surveyor – one is a profession with standards and the other is not
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We actually had a firm last week who would not collect keys as we were 6 miles away. They then sent us a link to an app, instructions via a you tube video on how to inspect the property, take 15-20 photos, download from site, inspect meters and boilers, loft space and then they would complete the survey from that……really!!!!. You actually want me to spend 2 hours on site filling in your report and photos for zip. They attended a week later, but I was amazed and furious that this is what it;s come to.
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Some companies are really trying it on (I bet their PI cover will not cover it either!).
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if that is the case paulnewboy – report them to the RICS as that is against RICS ethics and standards as no valuer should be doing that
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Dave21. I will. You know what it made me so mad I will actually take the time to do this for all our sakes! I will also email them to ask if they don’t mind doing a few viewings for me if they are in the area, seems only fair they do something while they wait for photos to come over!!
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After that all they will probably say is that it may have this, there could be that and we recommend that basically the whole house gets reinspected by a professional in the field. The survey reports are not really worth the paper they are written on. Running a small business we have numerous contractors etc coming in to collect keys. I am not sure why surveyors think they should be treated any differently. Most of the issues we get in sales originate in scaremongering in these reports. Collecting keys has not been an issue for years so I don’t see why it should be now. Hopefully, all this blow over but having had to meet a surveyor to give keys, they then were surprised when I said I could not wait whilst they did their report.
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If they didn’t collect keys from our office, then we would miss out on the joy of seeing their miserable faces.
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looked in the mirror lately Russell ?
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And they yours!
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I’m a chartered surveyor and undertake valuations. I am also a partner in a firm with agency. My agency team won’t be chasing around the country opening properties etc for surveyors. If the surveyor wants to pay for the service, that is a different story.
However, surveyors are their own worst enemy. You cannot do a red book valuation for £80-£100. Sorry, it can’t be done and comply with the red book, pay for the PII, time, travel, etc.
Why are surveys costing less than 20 years ago? We seem to be and industry (and I include all in this-agent, surveyor etc) hell bent on trying to continuously undervalue our services, qualifications, experience, knowledge etc.but undercutting and under valuing ourselves.
The hike PII premiums, this year and next, more regulation from RICS etc, is likely to drive many out of the valuation game. At bit like the challenge to Rightmove…time to stand up and value yourself.
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Well said!
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Sensible comment!
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you should know fees are dictated by the lender we either agree to them or go hungrey as other firms are more than happy to under cut. One society charged a £275 admn fee but our instruction were never to metion this to the applicant. More and more smaller firms will go ( some have already ) leaving just the corporates
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Surveyors, be honest. Wouldn’t you rather attend a vacant property without the owner following you about, telling you about their nice shiny new taps and denying you access to the airing cupboard?
Just come and pick the keys up. You know it makes sense.
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I would guess that Countrywide surveyors in common with most other surveying firms are absolutely fed up with wasting huge amounts of time picking up keys from Agents who cannot find the key book, cannot find the keys and generally are not ready / organised for the keys to be picked up. One Agent that I visit quite regularly has the keys / sales details all organised in an envelope on the front desk at the start of every day – ready and marked FAO the surveyor who is picking the keys up. He knows that most surveyors will have to park on double yellow lines close by to dash in and collect keys – and do the same to drop them back.
‘Back in the day’, house sales were generally handled by very local agents which meant the travel time for surveyors was normally quite short to pick up the keys, do the inspection and drop the keys back. Unfortunately, this situation has changed hugely and the travel distances to the ‘not so local’ agents is often high and therefore time consuming. This is often compounded by getting to the property to find that the vendors are at home – despite being told by the agent that no one would be at the property. (Nothing more frustrating!)
In short, agents need to be more organised to help surveyors minimize the time wasted picking up keys. Make sure the keys are ready (and not in your car) and the key book is always at hand, perhaps phone the vendors to see if anyone is in, look at the possibility of the surveyor leaving the key at the property to save a return visit to drop the key back and look at the possibility of installing temporary key safes at the property or arranging for the key to be picked up from a neighbour etc.
Ultimately, if all surveying firms decide not to pick up keys, it will fall to the Agent to arrange access (I expect that most vendors already imagine that you do) – so probably a wise idea for Agents to do as much as possible not to force this decision.
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Spot on Healy – there are good agents and there are bad regretfully one out numbers the other
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This article is simply depressing to read and a sorry state of affairs. There are of course pros and cons for all sides of the industry. If agencies & surveyors don’t work together then the system will grow fractious. Some times we all need help, other times we don’t. I’m a surveyor, sometimes i’m absolutely slammed and i’ve genuinely asked agents to meet me at the property rather than key pick up and im often told no but on occasions, my request has been accommodated. If im quieter, im more than happy to pick up keys and try and talk to the agent.
Some agents are rude, some surveyors are rude. some agents are lovely, some surveyors are lovely. Lots fall inbetween.
I do my best to help agents when I can in a multitude of ways and i genuinely don’t expect much back than common courtesy and a bit of politeness.
I cant help but observe that yes many more experienced agents understand a surveyors role in the transaction. We are not better than an agent, it is simply stating fact where we sit in the transactional process. Some less experienced agents don’t understand. I’ve actually asked them.
Like with anything in life, i blame their teachers. Educate.
Likewise, I have agency friends and relationships ive built up over years. I talk to people how they talk to me and I always start off polite.
Touch wood, we are all busy. Lets just be honest with eachother and try to help us all out. We want the surveys/valuations, agents want the deals. Thats fine.
Lets all just be polite, professional and helpful to those that give it back and we will start to mend some broken areas.
feel free to shoot me down but im giving my experiences & view point, nothing more.
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surveyor34, you sound like exactly the sort of surveyor who would be welcome any time – and who would have us meeting you with keys if necessary.
Keep on being as balanced as you obviously are.
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Thank you, same to you
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Amen brother.
One of the benefits of being handcuffed by ownership of a business is that you take the rough with the smooth because like the Hotel California you cannot leave, our relationship with surveyors on our patch is bang on after years of cooperation, they’ll phone us for advice on stuff unrelated to us and we’ll defend a sale price as best we can if challenged but nothing personal if legit and it dips, such is life.
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here here
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