OnTheMarket agent quits saying membership has ‘been catastrophic’ for money and business

| Rosalind Renshaw

An agent who signed up to a five-year deal with OnTheMarket has expressed profound dissatisfaction and has quit.

OnTheMarket expressed its own disappointment at losing a member.

The agent, Lisa Arcari, of My Place in Cornwall, has now gone back to Zoopla.

She said in an open letter released yesterday evening that membership of OTM cost her agency money and business.

She said she had been taken in by OTM’s sales pitch.

She also accused OTM of not responding to her complaints.

Arcari told EYE that she had tried without success to engage with OTM, and that other smaller independent agents should be warned.

She said she had felt compelled to publish the open letter.

The full letter to the OTM board says: “Over the past few months, my membership of your organisation has lost me money and lost me business.”

She said she had been taken in by OTM’s sales pitch, and poured doubt on OTM’s commitment to be the number two portal.

Last night, an OTM spokesperson said: “We are disappointed to see that this individual agent has been dissatisfied with but we do not comment on contractual relations with members.

“Since launching less than nine months ago, OnTheMarket.com has established itself as a serious player in the property portals market.

“The traffic continues to grow month on month and in September it achieved 5.6m visits. Last month we also provided a record number of leads to agents.

“Meanwhile, membership and support for OnTheMarket.com continues to grow week on week.”

OPEN LETTER TO AGENTS MUTUAL

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200 Comments

  1. Robert May
    October 15, 2015 at 07:01

    Morning Eileen, I am sat here waiting for your post, There is a small matter of a sneaky archive attack to attend to.

    Report
    1. smile please
      October 15, 2015 at 10:06

      What was the story out of interest?

      Report
      1. Robert May
        October 15, 2015 at 11:57

        The OTM story from 1st October, Eileen waited till the story was archived before posting  that  I am a ‘faux sage’. I’m not at all, I just debate and reply  as I see it. My posting style and bluntness irritates some posters, some people think I am constantly plugging my product.

        Effectively the attacks come from people who can’t counter what I am saying and  realise the dislike button has no affect.

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        1. smile please
          October 15, 2015 at 12:04

          Would not worry Robert.

          We all have our own thoughts and very rarely does everybody agree, there is the usual posters who do nothing but disagree and look to cause upset. Regular posters know who they are and are not to be taken seriously.

          As for “Rummage” i do not think you over plug it, far more get away with a lot less …..

          Out of interest i see one of my quotes were used at a conference yesterday, anybody care to tell me in what context?

           

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        2. Gump
          October 15, 2015 at 12:17

          Seriously Robert?!

          You have said a few times in posts since our debate that you won’t mention ‘something’ because it upsets people.

          It’s pathetic, get over yourself

           

           

          Report
          1. Robert May
            October 15, 2015 at 12:54

            There is  really is very little to get over,  I am simply meeting your attempts to discredit me in the best way I know how.

            Smile please asked a question I replied, it is only polite to.

             

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            1. Gump
              October 15, 2015 at 13:10

              I am not trying to discredit you or your posts Robert, never have done. A lot of what you say makes for good reading.

              What annoys me is the constant whining since our last debate.

              Just post, say what you want, how you want, whenever you want, no need for the extras or playing the victim

               

              Report
              1. Robert May
                October 15, 2015 at 13:43

                It isn’t constant whining, it’s negative reinforcement; a consistent approach to personal attack.

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                1. Gump
                  October 15, 2015 at 14:31

                  ‘I am not trying to discredit you or your posts Robert, never have done. A lot of what you say makes for good reading.’

                  That’s your idea of a personal attack? LOL

                   

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                  1. Robert May
                    October 15, 2015 at 15:08

                    Of course it isn’t. “Get over yourself” , “pathetic”, “constant whining” isn’t the sort of  debate I will or should have to tolerate.

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                    1. Gump
                      October 15, 2015 at 15:34

                      Eileen waited one day Robert, one day! Hardly archived, there were other responses from other posters on the same date.

                      And you felt the need to hijack this thread to call her out about a comment of hers 13 days later!?

                      Yes, everything you mention above seems pretty accurate now

                       

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                    2. Robert May
                      October 15, 2015 at 16:55

                      It isn’t my system,  Ros and Nick determine the rules for archive.

                      As for waiting 13 days, that is how long I had to wait to be sure she would be around to draw attention to her poor form and discuss it with her.

                      Your last paragraph doesn’t make any sense.

                       

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                    3. Gump
                      October 15, 2015 at 17:14

                      It was the day after!! People were still posting on the thread, the PIE email was probably still in your inbox!

                      Wow, just WOW! Who waits 13 days, 13 days!!!!!

                      ‘to be sure she would be around’ That’s not good Robert, not good at all

                      My last paragraph makes perfect sense, I suggest you re read it

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                    4. Robert May
                      October 15, 2015 at 17:37

                       

                      Pie notification emails go straight to the junk file and get deleted within an hour.

                      I didn’t wait 13 days I waited 3 since I saw it.

                      See above, not me.

                      E Henderson has a posting patten that shows this of all stories would attract her attention. I was right but she couldn’t be bothered.

                       

                      Re-read it, it doesn’t make sense.

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                    5. Gump
                      October 15, 2015 at 23:24

                      ‘as for waiting 13 days, that’s how long I had to wait to be sure she would be around……………’

                      ‘I didnt wait 13 days, I waited 3……….’

                      So which quote from you is the true one Mr May?

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                    6. Robert May
                      October 16, 2015 at 11:04

                      the comment was made 13 (now 14 days ago, I noticed  it 10 day after it was posted.

                      The total wait was 13 days between OTM stories of which I waited 3.

                       

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  2. Paul House
    October 15, 2015 at 07:10

    This agent seems very motivated to stop OTM becoming number 2 portal.

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    1. Trevor Mealham
      October 15, 2015 at 07:28

      @Paul – Is it the agent not wanting OTM to become No.2?? or that it failed to provide her with the business and savings that she was promised.  If so, has it also compromised her obligations under the Estate Agents Act 1979 to do the best for her clients?

      As a side stander – isn’t observation that she has done OTM with restraints and prior ZPG with no portal restraints and voted where she wants to be post test driving both??

      Report
      1. Trevor Mealham
        October 15, 2015 at 08:24

        My fear of being an AM agent – thinking that I should change my game to do more for consumers – yet staying with just OTM and just one other main portal under AM’s cartel like restraints, would be that knowing Im NOT doing the best for my consumer clients could land me in hot water.

        AM NEEDS TO REALISE THAT AGENTS HAVE TO ACT IN CLIENTS BEST INTEREST EAA1979 – and as per this agent she has had to leave as morally and for her own sake, this cartel like restraint has wrongly compromised her situation.
        AM and OTM are registered as two seperate companies at Companies House = two seperate entities. …….
        Cartels are the most serious form of anti-competitive behaviour between competitors
        The term cartel is generally used to describe an informal association or arrangement involving two or more competing companies. In a cartel, the members discuss and exchange information about their businesses or reach agreements about their future conduct, with the intention of limiting competition between them and increasing their own prices or profitability.
        Cartels are generally conducted covertly and will inevitably involve one or more of the “hard core” restrictions of competition law
        http://uk.practicallaw.com/0-381-9658?source=relatedcontent
         

         

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        1. smile please
          October 15, 2015 at 08:26

          Give it a rest Trevor. It’s not a cartel. It does not matter how many times you say it, it will not make it true!

          Report
          1. Trevor Mealham
            October 15, 2015 at 08:32

            Smile – take time out and do some CMA research.

            AM has 9 directors AND OTM has 2 DIFFERENT directors. FACT.   The maths really isn’t that hard.

            CMA has also NEVER said that they have gone away. FACT. Last communications they said they are still monitoring.

            With agents like this stating that its restrictions have failed them and their business which is to best serve consumers – then one entities rules, upheld by a seperate entity = cartel like behaviour.

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            1. smile please
              October 15, 2015 at 10:42

              Think you are doing 2+2 and getting 1017!

              Report
            2. harry hood
              October 15, 2015 at 11:43

              yes Trevor. I do admit that your argument cannot be dismissed by any of the criteria you have shared.

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              1. Trevor Mealham
                October 15, 2015 at 12:50

                @ harry

                Thanks harry

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        2. PeeBee
          October 15, 2015 at 12:52

          Mr Mealham – with regard to your statement that “AM NEEDS TO REALISE THAT AGENTS HAVE TO ACT IN CLIENTS BEST INTEREST EAA1979” I have responded below at what is very temporarily I am sure the bottom of the comments..

          Needless to say… you won’t like it.

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          1. Trevor Mealham
            October 15, 2015 at 13:40

            PeeBee its fine :-), it takes all types and poor or incorrect debate just makes my points stronger. So in reverse – thank you.

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            1. PeeBee
              October 15, 2015 at 15:59

              Yeah… that’s why NO ACTION has currently been instigated by the authorities – your points are blunt as a chimpanzee’s nose…

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              1. Trevor Mealham
                October 15, 2015 at 18:53

                ‘Currently’ is about right Paul PeeBee.

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                1. PeeBee
                  October 15, 2015 at 23:11

                  Mr Mealham

                  WHEN will you get it into your head – I am neither the goth fetish photographer nor the rather irate Yorkshire Estate Agent you have previously mistakenly ‘outed’ me as!

                  Report
  3. smile please
    October 15, 2015 at 07:23

    She makes some fair points in her letter. But she must have realised it eould take time to gather momentum and be a success?

    Are any other “true” members finding / feeling this?

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    1. Robert May
      October 15, 2015 at 08:13

      I think Lisa just lit the blue touch paper on a large and expensive legal bill.  I can’t see  a breach of contract unless Mx Arcari can evidence performance was guaranteed in her contract to join.

      By publicly going up against AM and OTM  she must be aware that AM have to  pursue the balance of her 5 year obligation  simply to make sure  she is the first but last to try this tactic.

      Either;  Lisa is very brave and very wealthy and able to afford  legal fees on both sides and the balance of he subscription. (The OTM contract looks sound and I can’t see a  breach)

      Or she is being funded to make this stand and someone with the money and motivation to  make the point will fund what will be a high profile case which would burn a heap of AM time, cash and resource  to defend; a vexatious lose can often be better than a sound win.

      Or she didn’t think this through fully and  now hopes the hypothetical backer from scenario 2 can be convinced to fund an almighty and damaging bun fight.

      On the other hand OTM might decide to let her out the contract, not chase her for the balance and so foil any attempt to engage them in a high profile legal battle.

      It will be interesting to see what happens!

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      1. smile please
        October 15, 2015 at 08:28

        I am confident that they will not keep her to the contract. Not worth the time, money, effort or publicity.

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        1. interestedobserver
          October 15, 2015 at 08:50

          Completely agree. If OTM’s value proposition becomes nothing more than a legal obligation they are in a world of pain. As such I think they’ll let this quietly disappear. In fairness to OTM, we know nothing about how much they have ‘cost’ her. I get a sense the situation was made worse by OTM not responding. That’s a controllable they should have dealt with promptly – assuming we take the complainants view at face value.

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          1. Robert May
            October 15, 2015 at 12:10

            An Endole search suggests  a series of bad decisions and this is someone to blame.

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      2. Trevor Mealham
        October 15, 2015 at 08:41

        The fact is Robert – agents have legal obligations to consumers. If a commercial enterprise made her go against consumer best interest. AND THEN made her stay to keep doing that. it could be the rocket that explodes in the firework box.

         

        In 2003 a group of Scottish Solicotor Agents where challenged by the OFT (pre runners of the CMA). The GSPC had to change their rules to accommodate agents as their actions where seen as anti-competative

         

         

         

         

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        1. PeeBee
          October 15, 2015 at 08:59

          Oh for goodness sake!

          “If a commercial enterprise made her go against consumer best interest.”

          MADE her??  Wake up and smell the cheese, sunshine – SHE MADE A CHOICE to become a Member.  No guns to heads; no threats; no hoses heads on pillows.

          Will you EVER ‘get’ that?

          Silly question – of course you won’t – ‘cos it doesn’t fit with your grotty agenda.

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          1. Trevor Mealham
            October 15, 2015 at 09:04

            Pee Bee – I’ve just quoted facts. Wake up and smell the coffee.

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            1. PeeBee
              October 15, 2015 at 09:23

              You have NOT quoted FACT when you say that OTM “made her” do ANYTHING.

              You are simply making a claim substantiated by nothing but your opinion.

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        2. Robert May
          October 15, 2015 at 09:01

          It is down to the individual clients to  decide whether their agent has exercised appropriate duty of care.  Now OTM is 9 months old  few vendors would be able to claim they didn’t understand their agent’s marketing strategy and therefore are  unable to say they’ve been hard done by.

           

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        3. MarkRowe
          October 15, 2015 at 09:09

          Trevor,

          im pretty sure no one ‘made’ her do anything.

          Can I ask you, what do you mean by ‘this is against consumers best interest’?

          What about agents that only use one portal to advertise on?

          im not having a go, simply trying to understand what you mean as it doesn’t seem to make sense if both the agent (client of OTM) and seller (client of the chosen agent) has choice??

          Report
          1. Trevor Mealham
            October 15, 2015 at 10:38

            Trying on a different browser as last replies not fed in.

            @ Mark:  no one ‘made’ her do anything.
            The agreement she signed wanted to MAKE her say for the 5 years.

            As such, given 9 months she felt that being on a main portal + OTM wasn’t doing as much for her business to help her serve clients as say RM + Z (and maybe OTM as well).

            So being made to continue this way she felt that she and her clients would further be restrained.

            No one made her join. But the article reads that expectations were pitched that didnt happen (in her view). as such should she be MADE to stay.

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        4. GPL
          October 15, 2015 at 10:42

          Trevor… detail that Scottish Solicitor Estate Agent matter please.

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          1. Trevor Mealham
            October 15, 2015 at 11:35

            @GPL for sure. As below:
            http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Magazine/60-7/1020495.aspx
            The article is called: Caught by the cartels

            13 JULY 15

            Are solicitors paying enough attention to the penal provisions of competition law, as affecting their own businesses?
            It goes on:

            Lawyers, their trade associations and other associated businesses are not immune from the sort of legal and ethical failings found in society in general or in other business models. In 2003 the Glasgow Solicitors Property Centre was found wanting and was obliged to change its entry rules following an investigation by the Office of Fair Trading. According to the report, the GSPC refused a membership application from a Glasgow based solicitor firm, putting that firm at a competitive disadvantage.

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    2. PeeBee
      October 15, 2015 at 12:11

      Well there you go, smile please – you asked for findings/feelings of those directly involved and you got exactly what you asked for…

      Report
      1. smile please
        October 15, 2015 at 13:20

        Not sure much substance apart from mud slinging from both sides 😉

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    3. OnTheFence
      October 15, 2015 at 15:40

      AM’s financial rating has fallen recently perhaps due to late filing of its annual accounts?

      Report
  4. JWVW
    October 15, 2015 at 07:24

    This agent runs her own business yet is incapable of making a rational decision to suit her business. By throwing her toys out of her pram, she’s left herself looking naive. If you make a choice, you have to be prepared to live with it. New businesses need plenty of time to get going. 9 months isn’t a lot of time. Back to your surf board Lisa!

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    1. interestedobserver
      October 15, 2015 at 08:54

      That’s nonsense. Her rational decision is it’s not working ergo she will address the cause of the problem. That’s not naive, that’s common sense. Saying  9 month’s isn’t a lot of time is an entirely subjective view. It’s a long time to watch instructions and sales decline in a competitive market. Not so long in the gestation period of an elephant.

      Report
    2. harry hood
      October 15, 2015 at 11:47

      very commendable that she can and did change her mind when new information came to light.

      As Keynes said, “when things change, I change my mind. What do you do Sir?”

      Report
  5. MF
    October 15, 2015 at 07:26

    Seems to me that there aren’t enough agents listing and promoting OTM in Lisa’s particular area.

    OTM surely need the vast majority of agents in this country to list with and support them (i.e. more stock to list and free marketing/publicity of OTM). I believe that for a lot of the smaller agents, they are just too expensive / unaffordable.

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  6. surreyagent
    October 15, 2015 at 07:42

    err…..isn’t the market well below normal levels of activity and therefore leads are really flat at the moment anyway. ours are with RM as well as OTM.

    on the basis it takes time to gain traction what did she expect. certainly RM aren’t ripping up trees for us so I am fairly relaxed about this and watching OTM grow in the meantime

    I wonder how long she has been in business as sounds like someone giving up a little too easy and not looking at the bigger picture????

    Report
  7. Simon Chan
    October 15, 2015 at 07:46

    Fun read, I think they’re both silly. As an agent you can’t drop the second biggest portal in the uk and then be shocked when you lose business and money as a consequence. It’s a given. However I think her points are valid and I wonder how long before it isn’t just some Cornwall agent who has a nasty break up with OTM and it’s a decent chain or strong independent more people have heard of. The house of cards has to come down soon, no?

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    1. Digital Expert
      October 15, 2015 at 09:39

      There are quite a few ‘strong Independents’ Simon, if you know where to look…

      It’s happening everywhere.

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    2. harry hood
      October 15, 2015 at 11:49

      Like dominoes …..

      Report
  8. AgencyInsider
    October 15, 2015 at 07:57

    There is more than a whiff of something odd about this. Leaving aside this agent’s ludicrous or naive expectation that OTM could be a direct replacement for Z or RM within such a very short space of time the open letter picks on every major point that rivals to OTM have used against it – viz:

    Lack of delivery compared to other portals; for top end London agents; not being truly ‘mutual’; knocking the Country Life deal and overseas section; advertising again on ‘other major portals’ brings immediate ‘huge increase in business; end the one other portal rule; ‘unfair’ five year contract; failure to deliver results.

    It’s all rather too pat and I do wonder whether some other hand has had input to this letter.

    Anyway, for someone who describes herself on her firm’s website as: ‘Property guru, with a cracking sense of humour’ I don’t see much evidence of the latter. Oh, and by the way – you still have the OTM logo on your site – and where are your letting fees to be found please?

     

     

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    1. Landlord
      October 15, 2015 at 10:19

      Yes Lisa was naive, it did not take a lot of working out that unless all you local agents joined then there was/is no point in an area like Cornwall.

      This is not designed for the small agents it is designed for the people who set it up, I will be very surprised if anything comes of this other than one more agent leaving OTM.

      The facts seem to be that OTM most likely breaks competition rules, if it does then there can be penalties, so they will want to keep their heads down.

      This may work in London and maybe other big city’s but Cornwall, Norfolk, Suffolk, Cumbria I think there is no chance.

      It will be a bit like English rule in Ireland it did not for a long time exist in reality ‘beyond the pale’

      RIP OTM in rural areas, sorry

       

      Lisa all the best

      Report
    2. harry hood
      October 15, 2015 at 11:51

      Maybe the point she makes is the same as everyone else because they are indeed very important points that are affecting members? Maybe…..just maybe everyone is feeling hte same?

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  9. EHenderson
    October 15, 2015 at 07:58

    Can’t be bothered Robert…

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    1. Robert May
      October 15, 2015 at 08:55

      With respect, if you are too busy to post on the day and have something  you disagree with, it is simply bad manners to post a personal attack once a story has slipped into the archive.

      I am not a ‘faux sage’ I post what I think and allow others to comment on what I post. I don’t engage is  personal attacks and certainly don’t wait for a cowardly opportunities on archived threads.

      Of all the stories you should be posting on this is it, if you don’t  I am  totally confused by your inconsistency, so much so  your motivation for posting becomes suspicious.

       

      As I have said before, a lot of things you have said are correct.  I suspect this resignation isn’t about portal performance it is  a high handed  and dismissive approach to customer care.  It is the after sales service of OTM to its agent customers that stands out in the letter  and not the lack of performance

      After sales service is the hard and expensive bit of any product or project and it is apparent there is an operations domain weakness which needs to be addressed.

      I am not talking without experience, the 1999-2000 transition of CFP from APM to Winman was a torrid time, the software struggled to work  consistently but the  firm came through that by the way  the problems were dealt with. The fact this story has appeared is a compound failure of service; If a customer has a problem a complaint or concern deal with it.

       

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  10. Disillusioned
    October 15, 2015 at 08:00

    She will be a tad disappointed if she thinks the Zoopla she left in January is the same Zoopla she is returning too, trust me.

     

    Some valid points in her letter but you would think somebody blaming loss of business and money on any second portal needs to looking elsewhere for the reason.

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  11. The Outsider
    October 15, 2015 at 08:20

    With the focus purely on sales – or signing those non binding agreements to sign up at some point in the future – this was always going to happen.

     

    OTM have no back office staff to support the running of a business their size (they cant even police the one other portal rule) and so a lack of engagement will become a common theme over the next year as more and more agents become disengaged.

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  12. timhammond
    October 15, 2015 at 08:34

    The key point here is that as a mutual, OTM should be caring about its members and be attempting to resolve or at least answer this agent’s issues. How about something like this (NB: OTM did not write this for those of you who ask!)

    “At OTM we apologise for the lack of enquiries to date as we try to build up our coverage in your area. We appreciate that RM has 14 agents in the PL27 postcode area, whilst we only have 2, and we have just 47 property listings whilst RM have 198. (Z have 10 agents and 140 listings). The current lack of stock on on our portal will have a bearing on whether the vast majority of consumers will continue their house hunting on RM and Z rather then trying OTM out.”

    Or maybe consumer did try OTM and were found lacking, much like many agents like myplaceincornwall. IMHO until OTM can get their stock levels up the consumers will see no reason to use them.

    Those figures again for PL27

    RM = 14 agents / 198 listings

    Z = 10 agents / 140 listings

    OTM = 2 agents / 40 listings

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    1. harry hood
      October 15, 2015 at 11:53

      Hard data makes things clear.

      Report
      1. Trevor Mealham
        October 15, 2015 at 12:55

        TRUE … …. …

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    2. PeeBee
      October 15, 2015 at 16:44

      Okay… here’s some more ‘hard data’ collated in the same way as the “hard data” above (which by the way, appears to be incorrect – but only by miles…) for consideration and debate.

      As ‘Listings’ means nothing – it is SALES that keep us all open for business (anyone wanting to run the same exercise for the Rentals properties feel free – I’m not chuffed about that side of the business…) :

      Sales Ratio (RM) – 34.1% (478 units of which 163 are SSTC)

      Sales Ratio (OTM) – 30.6% (85 units of which 26 are SSTC)

      What do you make of THOSE figures…?

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      1. Woodentop
        October 15, 2015 at 18:28

        I was thinking the same. The 2 OTM agents are doing better than any other agent on RM & Z. So I suppose she has returned to Z to be worse off.

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      2. timhammond
        October 16, 2015 at 10:31

        Sales are a result of buyers seeing listings. If you don’t have listings then you don’t get viewings or offers or sales. Agents should not dismiss the fact that buyers will naturally gravitate to the portals with the most comprehensive range of listings for the area they want to buy. If a buyer searches OTM and finds 40 listings of which 1 property might be suitable to view and then searches RM and finds 198 listings of which  times as many properties are suitable to view and potentially make offers on, which portal is most useful to the buyer?

         

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        1. AgencyInsider
          October 16, 2015 at 10:45

          Your point is of course valid timhammond but as a buyer I am only looking for one property and I will look anywhere possible to find it. I really don’t care how many properties there are on a portal. If that my perfect home is the only one on the portal, that’s just fine by me.

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          1. timhammond
            October 16, 2015 at 11:07

            Yes agreed – you could look anywhere – but should you need to look ‘everywhere’? The issue here is ‘how convenient is it for a buyer to have to look across 3 property portals to complete his or her shortlist of properties they might be interested in. Do we appreciate that by making the process harder for the buyer then this could have a knock-on effect on volume or speed of transactions?

            Make the process simpler for buyers and it’ll make it easier for agents to sell.

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            1. AgencyInsider
              October 16, 2015 at 11:25

              In an ideal world for the consumer perhaps all properties would indeed be on one single portal. But it isn’t an ideal world and never ever will be therefore I accept that for now I have to look at RM, Z and OTM. And since it isn’t compulsory for agents to list on any portal at all I will also look at agent websites, plus agent windows, local papers, boards, etc etc etc. Nothing in the foreseeable future will alter that necessity, will it?

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        2. PeeBee
          October 16, 2015 at 13:23

          Come on, ‘timhammond’ – you haven’t addressed my question relating to the statistics I chucked into the same ring you chucked yours into.

          What do you make of the fact that RM Agents scored 34.1% and OTM 30.6% sales to listings ratio?

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  13. marcH
    October 15, 2015 at 08:37

    A businesswoman who signs up to a 5 year contract in full knowledge of the facts. A property guru who accepts upfront the condition of ‘one other portal’. Whilst she does make points that resonate, being in business always involves risk. It is frankly ludicrous in my opinion to regret doing something which – as some of those above have said – will OBVIOUSLY take time to succeed. If she expected an overnight success she is clearly naïve in the extreme. If she didn’t, then she should have stuck with it. We ‘stickers’ are in it for the long haul – we won’t get another crack at removing the duopoly from their dominant position where they can abuse agents all day long with their ridiculous charging policy. Doesn’t she realise that as a mutual, the better AM does, the better we all do as the funding gets ploughed back into the overall effort – not into the pockets of owners and investors.

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    1. timhammond
      October 15, 2015 at 08:47

      “A businesswoman who signs up to a 5 year contract in full knowledge of the facts”

      Not sure this is correct. The businesswoman ‘only’ had the knowledge of the marketing statements of OTM and not the full facts. It is highly unusual for a startup to insist on such lengthy contracts with customers until their business’s marketing claims have been proven. In this case – and I don’t know all the facts, the agent might have been under the impression from the ‘marketing that led them to signup to the contract’ that more than 2 agents would join her in the shift from Z to OTM within the first year or so. Clearly this has not been delivered !

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      1. dave_d
        October 15, 2015 at 09:38

        “Her rational decision is it’s not working?” Where is the rational in ending your relationship with a company which gives you business to join one that has no track record at all and refuses to allow you to work with anyone else?

        It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realise that a start up company primarily web based isn’t going to deliver results for a long time..

         

        Report
    2. harry hood
      October 15, 2015 at 11:54

      yes, but her point is exactly that she is NOT doing better, in fact doing a lot worse f she is to be believed. so something in your theoretical argument does not hold water

      Report
  14. PeeBee
    October 15, 2015 at 08:47

    Just a tad confused here…

    Forget the “letter” – although I want to know who supplied the template – this Cornish “property guru” signed up to Zoopla in AUGUST… so why is this making news TODAY?

    Oh – and why is she still displaying the OTM logo on her website when she has quit the site and no longer advertises on it?  Is that a breach of ASA rules – falsely claiming to advertise somewhere that customers would obviously want their property showcased in order to win business?

    Tut, tut.

    Report
    1. Paul House
      October 15, 2015 at 09:03

      Morning PeeBee, if it’s a template then I suspect this will be the first of many very similar open statements to be released in the near future.

      Report
      1. the message
        October 15, 2015 at 15:12

        first of many? what do you know Paul? not like you to be nagative??….if you break rank we are all dooooommmmeeeedddd!!!

        Report
    2. Trevor Mealham
      October 15, 2015 at 09:08

      It also mentions this in Oct 1st 2015 NTSEATs ‘Guidance of Property Sales’ to show a trade or body logo that your not a member of.

      Report
    3. James Morris
      October 15, 2015 at 10:22

      The OTM logo has just been removed from their website on the Why us page.

      Report
      1. Ric
        October 15, 2015 at 10:27

        Me think we ALL need to stop visiting her website!! The next headline will be…

        “Record visits to Agents website since re-joining Z”

        Report
    4. harry hood
      October 15, 2015 at 11:55

      yeah school boy errors there!!

      Report
  15. PeeBee
    October 15, 2015 at 08:49

    “We are 21st Century estate agents providing a fresh and dynamic approach to all aspects of property selling…”

    Oh, yeah – the fresh and dynamic “slap them on the duopoly portals and wait for buyers to see ’em” approach, methinks…

    Report
    1. Digital Expert
      October 15, 2015 at 09:36

      I think that’s called ‘using the best available resource to market’. Might seem odd to you, PeeBee.

       

      Report
  16. Herb
    October 15, 2015 at 09:21

    Slowly slowly catchy monkey, Rome wasn’t built in a day. I’m glad she crammed the letter onto one side of A4 to save paper but unfortunately she forgot the delete the spaces on the second side DOH! Sums her all up really – ‘DOH!’

     

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    1. PeeBee
      October 15, 2015 at 09:28

      Not exactly a “letter” – more like a Press Release, wouldn’t you say?

       

      Report
  17. James Morris
    October 15, 2015 at 09:29

    Would of been easier (and probably cost less) adjusting the ’21st century’ website to actually get shown on the 1st page of google for relevent searches such as estate agent cornwall or letting agent cornwall.

    OTM may have gotten you less leads but at the end of the day portals don’t sell or let property, I thought that was the agents job?

    Report
    1. PeeBee
      October 15, 2015 at 09:44

      Couldn’t agree more with the second paragraph… and I don’t agree with you often, Mr Morris! ;o)

      Report
      1. James Morris
        October 15, 2015 at 10:02

        Nice to see we agree on something!

        Report
        1. James Morris
          October 15, 2015 at 10:04

          I also hate to be a sneak and say this but sod it. If the properties to let are sticking for this agent, perhaps charging 2 people £300 for admin/application fees might be putting people off renting through you. Just a thought.

          Report
          1. Woodentop
            October 15, 2015 at 18:35

            Nailed it. Your success is down to what YOU do.

            Report
    2. Ric
      October 15, 2015 at 10:03

      yep, absolutely – second para says it all. Another brainwashed agent clearly who thinks being back on Z will change something.

      I wonder if she stopped celebrating Christmas due to the effect it has on Listings.

      Report
      1. smile please
        October 15, 2015 at 10:38

        Seems like we are all in agreement!

        amazing how many agents think portals are the lifeline to their business.

        Report
        1. Digital Expert
          October 15, 2015 at 10:47

          So why are you on them?

          There are loads of ways to market your properties and win instruction, but try life without them for a while and see if it makes a difference.

          I’d wager you’d notice a very great deal of difference.

          Report
          1. smile please
            October 15, 2015 at 10:59

            They are tools DE,

            They help but that is all.

            You would be surprised the amount of property that is sold from agents databases, knowing our buyers and sellers.

            This is the difference between an online only agent and a full service high street agent. I guarantee 9/10 times i will achieve a better price on the same property than an online only agent.

            Report
            1. Trevor Mealham
              October 15, 2015 at 15:18

              @ Smile please – TOTALLY AGREE

              A good mailing list and when an agent knows how to use it can sell a property faster than the best portals

              Proper Agency  🙂

              Report
  18. Gump
    October 15, 2015 at 09:30

    The end is nigh

    Report
  19. wilko
    October 15, 2015 at 10:06

    Lisa Arcari from my place, cornwall clearly has a lot to learn about dealing with business issues.

    An “open letter”-to anyone- is not the way to go about sorting out any issues like this. I’m sure most directors/agency owners here have had times when they would have liked to have written “open letters” about RM and Z for example but realise that the better way is always to sort things in house, even if the ideal outcome isn’t reached. I think she will quickly realise that her naivety will bring a negative publicity (not necessarily because of her viewpoints on the matter-but the way she has aired them/tried to sort them out)

    Interestingly, I noticed on the my place cornwall website that the agency is still stating that they “advertise on a variety of portals including Rightmove and on the market”……So, Lisa, you didn’t really buy into the 2 portal anyway according to this statement?

    The fact that you chose to pile into otm with this letter without even thinking of updating your main marketing outlet (your website) is indicative that you, at best, didn’t really think this action through in my opinion……..Could you let us know your real reasons for for the open letter?……My guess is “publicity”

    Report
    1. Gump
      October 15, 2015 at 10:15

      Open letters can work very well, they get a lot of exposure.

      A lot of folk will quite possibly be feeling the same as Lisa (rightly so in my opinion) If OTM don’t do anything (i’m confident they won’t) then this can open the floodgates and be just the thing disgruntled OTM members have been waiting for.

      If OTM play this wrong it could end up being quite the costly mistake

      Th

      Report
      1. wilko
        October 15, 2015 at 10:29

        “Open letters can work very well”

        Why didn’t any of the 1000s that left Zoopla or RM do one then?

        Whichever side of the fence you sit on with otm and whatever viewpoints people have ….an open letter is not the way to sort anything out, whichever way you dress it up.

        The only reason that this was done in this fashion is to damage the company in question, and give publicity to the agency.

        Whilst there are those on this forum who will be rubbing their hands together with this letter, they would have to admit that this is not the way to sort out an issue of this nature in a professional manner.

        And why do OTM need to “play it” at all? ……someone who didn’t understand the contract or the concept of OTM has decided to seek some self publicity on the back of it….that is all that has happened!

        Gump…..take an note of how many properties my place has now…..and see how many more they have by the end of the year…..it should show a fantastic increase if what their director believes is actually true….agreed?

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        1. Gump
          October 15, 2015 at 10:50

          Lisa allegedly has done one because none of her complaints were answered, I’m pretty sure RM and Z deal with their complaints quite efficiently so there would be no need for an open letter.

          If there is any truth in her letter and as a shareholder she is being ignored then yes, the company in question deserves to be damaged. It will be interesting to see how many now come out of the woodwork.

          OTM have to play it, hold her to contract or let her go, they have no choice there.

          No point going from now to the end of the year , it’s silly to suggest that as a comparison, you would go year on year

          Report
          1. wilko
            October 15, 2015 at 11:27

            Come on Gump, you seem to me to be professional person….If you think an open letter is appropriate because her complaints weren’t answered then should I be in double figures this year with open letters to Rightmove?

            No, I continue to deal with my (serious) complaints with them privately and professionally as that is the way to deal with this type of issue. More importantly, an open letter would not serve to resolve the serious issues I have with RM.

            How many open letters have you ever written? ……or have you never complained about anything ?

            Like I said, whatever your views……this is NOT the professional way to deal with this type of issue.

            Report
            1. Gump
              October 15, 2015 at 11:46

              This tread has has near 4000 views and 75 comment as of this post.

              I said they were effective, they are.

              It’s all well and good staying private and professional but if Lisa is so annoyed at the lack of response from her correspondence with OTM that she has had to do this her private and professional hasn’t worked for her.

              It will now force OTM to listen to her and act.

              It has served her purpose very well.

              PS. I once complained about a bad chocolate bar, got £3 vouchers back in the post! Happy Days 🙂

              Report
              1. wilko
                October 15, 2015 at 12:23

                I remember that……2009 wasn’t it? that open letter to Cadbury about your Dairy Milk that was off…. that was all over the dailys and the evening news wasn’t it….that was you was it?

                Fair play, it seems that open letters do,in fact, work. I take everything I’ve said back!

                Report
                1. Gump
                  October 15, 2015 at 13:28

                  That was my 15 minutes of fame wasted!! 😛

                  Report
        2. HarryN
          October 16, 2015 at 10:52

          Err – they did write open letters Wilko – mainly on this website. I remember the flurry of press releases that were published on this website in the run up to Agents Mutual launch.

          Totally understand why you and the other wallies that have drunk Springett’s Kool-Aid should find this ladies statements insulting, but this is a very familiar tactic to those who have been watching this thing unfold…

          Report
      2. Robert May
        October 15, 2015 at 12:32

        An Endole report suggests the previous financial year wasn’t very good,  the business decline in 2013/2014 tax year is  considerable and that is a full financial year before OTM launched and the switch to it made. That undermines the open letter and all of the claims made in it

        Report
    2. harry hood
      October 15, 2015 at 11:58

      my guess is anger

      Report
  20. BrandNew
    October 15, 2015 at 10:23

    So Z’s shares are 20% down on their high…..

    If we get other ‘announcements’ over the next 24/48 hours, to add to this letter and the USwitch press release, then I’ll begin to think another Z Director has a large tax bill to pay.

    Report
    1. danny
      October 15, 2015 at 10:46

      I’ve just heard that flight mh17 was bought down with a Russian made missile. I bet somehow Zoopla managed to engineer the situation and fire this Rocket to draw attention away from the fact that more people are using easy jet because <insert tenuous link between Zoopla and British airways here>

      Report
      1. Property Pundit
        October 15, 2015 at 13:10

        Wow, pretty distasteful analogy or is it just me? Shameful.

        Report
      2. Ric
        October 15, 2015 at 13:23

        In other news, Estate Agent taken away in padded van for questioning.

        Report
      3. GPL
        October 15, 2015 at 17:13

        you’re an absolute esra with that comment ynnad….. Danny!

        Report
      4. 1stTimeBuyer
        October 19, 2015 at 13:16

        Using the death of 298 in the attempt to put your nothing point across.  You should be ashamed. That is disgusting… I wonder what your clients would think of such a comment!!!

        Report
  21. agentx
    October 15, 2015 at 10:33

    And how many months free subscription did the slippery desperate Zoopla agent offer to get this agent to print this waffle??

    Report
    1. Digital Expert
      October 15, 2015 at 10:40

      Are you suggesting the only reason an agent would publicly denounce OTM is bribery?

      Report
      1. Ric
        October 15, 2015 at 10:50

        Z are hounding me like crazy at the minute! Even though they know I was never on it (other than free trial) and now on OTM…. yet yesterday 2 more calls from them.

        With the above I am thinking of asking “I would love to swap, but how can I with my OTM commitments” perhaps there is a incentive, I know the membership fee they offered me last week was LOW.

        Report
        1. smile please
          October 15, 2015 at 11:02

          We received a visit no less from our rep, first time ever.

          We received a bump in membership, not really making any difference!

          Report
    2. harry hood
      October 15, 2015 at 11:59

      you shouldn’t say this unless you can back it up. can you?

      Report
      1. smile please
        October 15, 2015 at 12:06

        You seem to agree with comments and posts you cannot back up …..

        Report
      2. Ric
        October 15, 2015 at 12:57

        Sorry – Say which bit exactly? and back which bit up?

        Report
  22. agentx
    October 15, 2015 at 10:49

    Im not an Estate Agents, so you experts tell me if these are the stats of a struggling business.

    The website for My Place in Cornwall currently carries a stock of 40 sale properties – 17 are either sold or under offer. Not a bad ratio for a struggling business?

    They also have a stock of 11 rental properties with 2 noted as let agreed.

    Thoughts?

    Report
    1. Gump
      October 15, 2015 at 10:58

      That would depend on what stock they had before going to OTM, without that info your post serves no purpose.

      Last year they might of been 60 for sales, 30 under offer, 18 rentals, 9 let, in which case, yes, struggling year on year

      Report
      1. PeeBee
        October 15, 2015 at 12:00

        Sorry, Gump – but isn’t that simply what NAEA etc are stating as a NATIONAL problem?

        Report
        1. Gump
          October 15, 2015 at 12:07

          It’s ok Peebee, you don’t have to be sorry

          Report
    2. James Morris
      October 15, 2015 at 12:01

      Also the fact that they might have regular managed lettings on their books too which would help with the income every month.

      The market is fairly quite in the area we cover and excluding the big boys with multiple offices, we have seen at least 3 independent agents close over the past year and a half in this area alone. Although we have only got 4 available properties to Let currently, we enjoy the benefit of managing a pretty large portfolio of properties that generates regular income from management fees so it’s no as worrying for us, compared to an agent with little in their portfolio and only a few available to let.

      Report
  23. agentx
    October 15, 2015 at 11:04

    And a quick check of Rightmove sales stock for the agent reveals 23 sold or sale agreed from the same 40 listings?

    Is this a struggling agent??

    I think this self proclaimed ‘Property Guru’ is simply self promoting herself??

    Report
  24. GPL
    October 15, 2015 at 11:08

    Let’s see if the real truth unfolds on the reason/motivation for Lisa’s “Open Statement”.

    If it’s lack of OTM Customer Service then I understand part of it however Rightmove are woeful at times and I have spent over 3 Years getting them to sort an issue with their website…. still unresolved as far as I know because they can’t be @rsed!

    Zoopla Customer Service I can’t comment on as I never heard from them until I left them.

    OTM Customer Service?……. in my experience? ……room for improvement however I have cut them some slack because they are building at present.

    Lisa/My Place Customer Service?…… I’m guessing there must be some dissatisfied clients out there….. one wonders if they would post an “Open Letter”.

    My verdict?….. naive Lisa…. you didn’t handle this professionally and were at best misguided in your approach….. however, rattle up a Crowdfunding Project for a New Surfboard Wax for your For Sale Board Signs and I’m in!

    Report
    1. the message
      October 15, 2015 at 11:28

      Classic. How do you know what has gone on in the background. How many letters or conversations has Lisa had begging for action. Was this the last straw of a desperate woman, or a cold and calculating PR plan. You don’t know, nor do I, so get off your high horse and stop pontificating like the jumped up buffoon you sound like.

      Walk a day in another persons shoes before commenting I always find. You never know what battles people are fighting, so don’t judge, especially when your judgement is based on one eyed OTM protectionism.

      Shame on you GPL I expected better.

      Report
      1. agentx
        October 15, 2015 at 11:37

        Zoopla shares down??

        Report
      2. GPL
        October 15, 2015 at 11:45

        theBITTERmessage…… take it out on someone else…… preferably yourself!

        Otherwise don’t vent your tuppence worth of nothing to me….. when you fail to engage your brain I have no interest in listening.

        If only you knew what I know you would understand how laughable some of your personal attacks are….. however as a small insight for your narrow minded opinion…. I have already dealt with OTM on issues I had!……and unlike others I don’t go bleating! Likewise Rightmove…… I could bleat on about their issues however what’s the point as they don’t listen….. rather like you!

        and to respond to your personsl “jumped up buffoon” remark!?…… no, I won’t bother, your comment smacks of the person hiding behind their keyboard.

        Report
        1. the message
          October 15, 2015 at 11:52

          I thought it was quite a reasoned response to your personal attack on someone you don’ know, and have no idea of her situation.

           

          Obviously, you being perfect have made OTM jump at the slightest behest, she might have not been as good as you, so chose a different route. Or she might be PR mad, who knows.

          And please do make a public assault on R, I am sure they would just cancel your contract, and as you need them so much…..

           

          Report
        2. harry hood
          October 15, 2015 at 12:01

          don’t fall into his/her trap and spend yet more time shouting at them!

          Report
        3. the message
          October 15, 2015 at 13:36

          “if only you knew what I know”””…hahaha, do tell oh wise one!

          Report
  25. the message
    October 15, 2015 at 11:19

    60 plus posts already, a few of whom are personal attacks – what a fun day.

     

    Ultimately it is her call, I wouldnt have done something like this, but who knows what has gone on behind the scenes, how bad or not OTM have behaved with her. Might be just an isolated case, or might spead, who knows…

     

    Fascinating to me what happens next – do OTM sue her and win, scaring others off from similar actions, but what if they sue and lose??….I never think taking things like this legal help, so can see them not taking acyion, but will this allow others to get braver.

     

    Some rubbish spouted on both sides above.I for one have no interest in the CMA argument, this is too much small beer for them.

     

    But there are a few interesting facts, which highlight to me why OTM is executing badly. Many poeple acknowledging it takes time to build up, which is obviously correct. If they were charging 20-50 per month, and non exclusive I would be on like a shot. But thats all its worth for now. ANd by coming off Z now it would genuinely hurt my business. Maybe only for the short term yes, but it would hurt the houses being sold or rented NOW. And thats the killer. In many areas, going on OTM hurst your business today, and you are having to lie to vendors telling them you are acting in their best interests……if they find out you havent been…….any chance of a vendor bringing a case in hindsight saying an agent didnt get the best possible value? hard to argue based on some of the comments on here…

     

    Report
    1. wilko
      October 15, 2015 at 11:34

       

       

      Report
    2. James Morris
      October 15, 2015 at 12:17

      I may be off the mark here but the last paragraph… You don’t want to join OTM because it would hurt your business yet you say you would join it if it cost 20-50 a month? Surely if OTM is so bad for your business, even if it costs £1 a month it is still going to ‘hurt your business’.

      What your really saying is that price is key, which I find odd since our membership with OTM is actually slightly less than it was with Z (and although delivers slightly fewer leads, the quality is far better).

      There would of been no reason for OTM to even exist if they had not gone down the route of the one other portal rule. Stock is key, by taking stock from other portals it meant that people had a reason to go to OTM at the start to view property, not simply because they prefered the design over RM or Z.

      The whole point of OTM is to become the main portal and rid us agents of the crazy fees charged by RM every month because lets face it, RM is in a world of it’s own with their fees compared to both OTM and Z. It can’t do this if agents, who are struggling to let and sell their properties, blame it purely on the fact that OTM hasn’t ‘delivered’

      Report
  26. wilko
    October 15, 2015 at 11:39

    The anti OTM continuously say that OTM have made Rightmove stronger and Zoopla weaker.

    Yet today they are applauding the fact that someone has dropped OTM for a return to Zoopla!

    You can’t have it both ways guys…..”my place” has remained on Rightmove throughout so surely she doesn’t need to go back to Zoopla for leads? Isn’t Rightmove sufficient on it’s own???? ….or perhaps that doesn’t suit your arguments today???

     

    Report
    1. the message
      October 15, 2015 at 11:47

      I think the stock market believes that R is much stronger, their share price has doubled, they are worth about £1.5billion pounds more since OTM launched.

      Report
      1. wilko
        October 15, 2015 at 12:34

        So Rightmove have only become stronger in the eyes of the stock market?

        Report
        1. the message
          October 15, 2015 at 13:34

          The “stock market” isnt one person sitting there, its the independent views of thousands/tens of thouands of investors making decisions based on evidence. Of course it gets it wrong, but this is one heck of a movement over 6 or so months. Does anyone really think R is currently weaker??

          Report
          1. wilko
            October 15, 2015 at 15:27

            “Does anyone really think R is currently weaker”

            Exactly my point, why did she feel that going back to Zoopla would reverse her bad fortune created by, according to her, OTM.

            I think, and some have mentioned the my place cornwall financial position, that there is much more to her change in fortunes than her claim it is only down to OTM.

            Report
  27. harry hood
    October 15, 2015 at 12:05

    Should OTM sue to claim back the full 5y year contract?

    I don’t think they have a lot of choice in this. Quite simply if they don’t then the landslide will begin and all of their 5 year contracts which they worked very hard for would then be worth absolutely nothing. A contract is a contract. Otherwise why bother?

    Report
    1. wilko
      October 15, 2015 at 12:30

      “Quite simply if they don’t then the landslide will begin”…….I’d be worried if anything you’ve predicted about the demise of OTM has ever been right.

      1 public complaint in the year to date…..come on …….what’s your prediction for further public withdrawals by the year end…..give us all a laugh.

      Report
      1. PeeBee
        October 15, 2015 at 14:19

        In fairness, wilko – there was that junior Neg who blamed OTM in advance for him not hitting his targets and went all ‘whistleblower’ down the other pub – shouldn’t we count him as a complaint?

        Wonder if a certain business owner gave him a position on the back of that story to allow the unfortunate chap who relied so much on the portals to bring business his way an opportunity to prove he could, in fact, cut the mustard in the nasty-pasty world of Estate Agency…? ;o)

        Report
  28. harry hood
    October 15, 2015 at 12:05

    I suspect she’s playing game theory here and figuring if she gets out early she is most likely to get out of this contract.

    Report
    1. Ric
      October 15, 2015 at 12:20

      and there is a reason perhaps she may be made an example of! If you sign a contract and agree something you should stick to it or pay the consequence.

      Lets be fair, I assume we would all expect our vendors to adhere to our agency agreements, or would you be relaxed if one of your vendors instructed a number of agents? and paid who she felt like!

      Report
      1. Trevor Mealham
        October 15, 2015 at 13:03

        @ Ric.  Totally agree. But it depends on how lawful a contract is, based on what it represents and delivers.

        If a contract isn’t fulfilled as sold, or conflicts then the likes of Trading Standards or CMA could dispute as void.  Things have to be fair and honest in what they imply and deliver.

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        1. Ric
          October 15, 2015 at 13:15

          Afternoon Trevor, yup I get that, but perhaps if an agent doesn’t market their stock very well, over prices, rubbish photos and is generally an under the radar type of agent perhaps then OTM cannot be blamed for a lack of leads, nor could any agent for that matter.

          With your views on “doing the best for your client” I suppose NOT being on RM at present is the ONLY criteria where you could argue you are not giving your vendor maximum exposure. Otherwise PeeBee is right, in where do you stop? every website, every paper, every everything which can be used should be! but really? Online Only Agents are definitely in breach in this case, in not offering a High Street presence surely?

          More so, just to throw a curve ball at the whole Z scenario – Is being on Z doing the best for my clients anyway? as by advertising its “mainly lower” guestimate prices as they do it promotes offering lower?

          My clients expect me to “achieve the best price in a reasonable time scale” and it could be argued ANY website which displays property prices lower than that of the subject property on the same landing page is in fact working against me and the owner of that house.

          I think doing the best for my vendors would be to ensure there is little in the middle to put people off calling me and more to make the potential buyer call me straight away.

          Report
          1. Robert May
            October 15, 2015 at 13:53

            Doing the best for the customer  is selling the property in a time frame  to suit the vendor at a price they are happy with. How that is achieved is the concern of the agent   and not the authorities unless the agent fails in their duty of care. Any discussion beyond that is pub talk

            Report
            1. Trevor Mealham
              October 15, 2015 at 14:26

              Dead right Robert.  Lengthening that: it’s easier to mix cement with a cement mixer than a spoon, and to paint a wall with a brush, rather than a pencil. Different tools in different instances can achieve better results

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              1. Robert May
                October 15, 2015 at 16:28

                The trouble is you don’t always need a full load of cement Trevor  and so more mix is wasted stuck around the mixer and more time wasted washing the mixer than if you had done a bucket mix.

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          2. Trevor Mealham
            October 15, 2015 at 14:10

            Hi Ric, I totally agree with you. …..

            If an agent promises nornmal or best details, photo’s etc, would it be wrong to deliver less??  YES

            If in an agents area OTM or Prime was busiest and best portal then would it be wrong to say that RM or Z was better in the sellers area. Again it would be wrong.

            PeeBee is very wrong. You stop at best advice, and deliver it honestly and fairly.

            How many areas do OTM stats fall below RM, Z, Prime and to that Google longtail search, yet agents don’t relay it?

            If a seller is away that they are on OTM and the agents window (or not) and even in Farmers weekly if the agent feels this combination best serves the client, then best efforts should gain best results. now subbing could hit all basis and bring even more punters in to make an offer 🙂 and whether its us (INEA), TEAM, Lonres etc as in different areas we or they are stronger or weeker, then agents should offer what THEY feel is best for the client. Not whats best for the agents pocket long term.

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            1. PeeBee
              October 15, 2015 at 14:25

              “PeeBee is very wrong.”

              No – it is YOU that is “wrong” here.

              Prove otherwise.

              Report
              1. PeeBee
                October 15, 2015 at 14:28

                Wondered when you would get that all-important ‘subbing’ plug in.

                What’s the point of having an agenda if you don’t let people know what it is, eh?

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              2. Trevor Mealham
                October 15, 2015 at 14:28

                Poor old PeeBee. He’d swear green was blue. Look closer, open eyes are a start 🙂

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                1. PeeBee
                  October 15, 2015 at 18:51

                  Just a quick question, Mr Mealham –

                  Does it bother you one jot that there are Agents affiliated to YOUR organisation that are also Members of Agents Mutual – and that your constant stirrings of the crock of 5h!t you perceive could drop them in the stew you are trying to cook up?

                  Report
                2. PeeBee
                  October 15, 2015 at 18:52

                  Like I said… PROVE OTHERWISE.

                  Note the emphasis on the PROVE.

                  Report
                  1. Trevor Mealham
                    October 15, 2015 at 19:12

                    I think Ive given enough proof PeeBee. People like yourself can only be warned not to play near the fire so many times. After, all we can do is wait for you to burn your fingers and say told you so.

                    Report
                    1. Paul House
                      October 15, 2015 at 19:57

                      Trevor are there any agents on OTM also one of your clients on INEA and if so are they happy with OTM?

                      Report
                    2. PeeBee
                      October 15, 2015 at 20:14

                      Good luck getting Mr Mealham to comment on his flock who list on OTM, Paul – he’s avoiding those questions like the plague! ;o)

                      Report
                    3. Trevor Mealham
                      October 16, 2015 at 11:29

                      I don’t have a problem with agents doing INEA, OTM, RM and Z. INEA doesn’t run a one other only portal rule.
                      Equally, if an agent is in an area where OTM is top of the tree, then other than its cartel like rules, I would be asking the agent why they wasn’t on OTM to gain max exposure.

                      In most cases OTM is near the tree trunk hit wise (INEA isn’t a portal its a B2B). As such I do question why agents would enter a restrictive cartel like agreement to not be able to place their clients on higher ranking portals to gain more buyer interest = best offer.

                      Report
                    4. PeeBee
                      October 16, 2015 at 14:55

                      I’m sorry – you consider that an answer to my original question?

                      I certainly don’t – and I must press you for a definitive response.

                      You are doing your damnest to engineer a situation which would (were you not a million miles off-base, that is…) potentially expose some of your members to hefty financial penalty.

                      So – I ask again – does it or does it not bother you one iota that your actions may result in a situation that in your opinion will cause financial harm or embarrassment to them in one way, shape or form?

                      Report
                    5. PeeBee
                      October 17, 2015 at 10:57

                      Taking this to the bottom of the thread as Mr Mealham mustn’t be able to find it…

                      Report
  29. PeeBee
    October 15, 2015 at 12:46

    Mr Mealham – following on from above somewhere…

    It is impossible to prove or otherwise that listing a property on any particular website is compliance with the requirement to “ACT IN CLIENTS BEST INTEREST EAA1979”.

    That be the case – then we are ALL falling foul of the Law as NONE of us are on EVERY website and portal WORLDWIDE – and they all make the identical claim that being listed on them will increase the likelihood of achieving a sale.

    And what about press advertising?  Are you saying there is a requirement to list EVERY property in EVERY newspaper property supplement nationally EVERY week?

    What about TV advertising?

    Radio?

    Back of a bus ticket?

    What about the vast majority of Agents, who do not have sufficient window space to advertise EVERY property 24:7 – are they not falling foul of ‘The Law According To Trevor Mealham 2015′ (hereto referred to as TLATTM20145)?

    What about Agents who have NO WINDOW?

    And what about the good old For Sale/To Let Board?  Should we, in order to comply with ‘TLATTM2015’ refuse to market property unless a vendor/landlord agrees to having one in case of present or future backlash?

    What about areas where boards are outlawed by Councils?  Can we complain to CMA that these authorities are preventing potential transactions by their actions and in breach of ‘TLATTM2015’?

    The list goes on – but the answer remains constant.

    Get real, Mr Mealham.

    Report
    1. the message
      October 15, 2015 at 13:18

      you are right peeBee, and it is very difficult to uphold or prove. But there are agents who publicly state that they have accepted some short term pain for the longer term gain – three comments from pro OTM agents above copied below. The problem is the short term pain is also inflicted (unknowkingly) on the seller, who gets less interest in his property. Has the agent, who is well aware of this, made it clear to the vendor. I seriously doubt it. Do I care, not really, but it is definitely more of an issue than the collusion argument Trevor plays up to. people who have joined OTM in areas of very low OTM penetration are being very brave, taking one for the team, feeling short term pain for all of our long term gains and I salute them, but they are also letting their vendors down and thats where things start to get messy.

      “New businesses need plenty of time to get going. 9 months isn’t a lot of time.” JWVW 7.24am

      There is more than a whiff of something odd about this. Leaving aside this agent’s ludicrous or naive expectation that OTM could be a direct replacement for Z or RM within such a very short space of time the open letter picks on every major point that rivals to OTM have used against it  Agency Insider 7.57am

      Those figures again for PL27
      RM = 14 agents / 198 listings
      Z = 10 agents / 140 listings
      OTM = 2 agents / 40 listings

      Report
      1. PeeBee
        October 15, 2015 at 17:27

        “Those figures again for PL27”

        You missed out a significant word, ‘the message’ – be inserted between ‘Those’ and ‘figures:

        flawed.

        Or how about ‘incorrect’.  Or ‘meaningless’.

        There’s a lot of choice for the appropriate word to insert.

        Please also see my response to the OP of these flawed statistics – your own opinion would be welcomed.

        Report
    2. Trevor Mealham
      October 15, 2015 at 13:35

      Pee Bee Paul – your missing the point.

      The Estate Agents Act 1979 is intent on you the agent doing the best in your clients interest. CPR’s make point that consumers need to be treated honestly and fair and not misled.

      If you feel that what you are doing is exactley that then you are adhering to what you should be doing as an estate agent.

      Various stats show that in many areas some portals achieve more eyeballs than OTM. If this is relayed to a consumer at the time they decide to support PeeBee Estates then the consumer is getting a fair honest representation.

      If a consumer invites you out – if OTM sits in 3rd-4th-5th google ranking – do you tell them :   we advertise on the UK No.1 or No. 2 and the 4th-5th 36th ranked additional site as to hopefully one day win back portal space (EVEN THOUGH TODAY WE WON’T BE PLACING YOU ON THE NO. 1&2 ETC).

      And in areas that FS Boards are not allowed – that goes for all agents – it doesn’t say that any one agent type – say online only – or Hg Street only can have them and the others can’t as does where AM/OTM agents are restrained from being able to show their consumers listings.

      CMA is about national and area fairness as allowed under UK law. Thus planning rules on boards apply as per local councils the same to all under those councils.

      Report
      1. Paul House
        October 15, 2015 at 18:21

        Trevor you say that the EA act means the agent must do the best to act in their clients interest, who’s to say that NOT advertising on Zoopla is acting in their clients beat interest.

        Report
        1. Woodentop
          October 15, 2015 at 18:43

          Because Trevor has another reason which he is reluctant to share, why he hates OTM so much. Come on Trev, own up and stop hiding behind all that twaddle your misrepresent about best for client etc. Its is all a red herring to direct people away from your real reason.

          Report
          1. Trevor Mealham
            October 15, 2015 at 19:16

            Sorry Woodentop, what are you implying

            You’d best enlighten me along with everyone else.

            Report
  30. the message
    October 15, 2015 at 13:21

    more importantly, as an industry we are being dragged into another sleaze row with these ghost properties. Add this onto the COuntrywide energy racket, and the rip off fees for references and its been another cracking week for us. Instead of trying to block the virtual agents through barring them from OTM (which smacks of desperation) maybe we should stand up more to the shoddy behaviour that we allow by saying nothing, or turning a blind eye. To me, AM should say how much they hate this sort of thing, and ban those agents, rather than giving a damn about a virtual

    Report
  31. Pomdownunder
    October 15, 2015 at 13:23

    Hmmm, so a Real estate agent, the master salesperson, is professing to being taken in by another’s sales pitch. I suspect she had problems round the corner if she’s that lightweight. Silly blaming OTM for loss of business. She chose to come off Zoopla so I assume that was the site getting her the 2nd most amount of leads. I would put money on the fact that Zoopla as her 2nd best performing portal was not driving enough leads to be nigh on indispensable to her, which is what she’s inferring. The truth is in an area like Cornwall, anyone looking for property for sale is unlikely to just leave it at one site as the low volume of stock compared to major cities would most likely mean they visit more than one site. Zoopla would therefore highly unlikely have much of a “unique audience’ in somewhere like Cornwall. The consumers would have found her listings on rightmove, so it’s total tosh that being with OTM cost her money and business. Based on her susceptibility to a sales pitch, I suspect her problems lie elsewhere…..

    Report
    1. Robert May
      October 15, 2015 at 13:49

      According to Endole her financials show a  serious decline from 2013- 2014,  any gain in fortune between 2011 and 2013 had evaporated to nothing by 2014, before she had a single property listed with OTM

      Report
      1. the message
        October 15, 2015 at 14:48

        whats the company name robert – I like having a nose!

        Report
        1. Robert May
          October 15, 2015 at 15:27

          3w + endole.co.uk/company/06778236/my-place-in-cornwall-ltd

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          1. OnTheFence
            October 15, 2015 at 15:39

            AM’s financial rating has fallen recently perhaps due to late filing of its annual accounts?

            Report
            1. Robert May
              October 15, 2015 at 16:07

              I haven’t followed  OTM or AM finances and with them reporting to themselves can’t see it as important. If the money runs out everyone dips in and coughs up some more.

              Report
  32. TAB
    October 15, 2015 at 13:57

    OTM have no choice but to pursue the contract – that’s what they said they’d do, so let’s see them be true to their word.

    If someone enters in to a 5 year contract, then they surely must’ve looked at it as a medium to long term plan. No investment should be judged after less than 10 months.

    Sure, the uptake of agents to OTM in Cornwall has been slower than some parts of the Country – that’s a typical ‘dreckly’ thing (Cornish for mañana)

    But a good agent doesn’t recruit stock because of which portals they are/aren’t on, it’s reputation that counts first and foremost.   Does the agent seriously think that by reverting to Zoopla that the floodgates will open and she’ll be blessed with new instructions on an otherwise sparsely laden website?

    Report
    1. PeeBee
      October 15, 2015 at 23:24

      “No investment should be judged after less than 10 months.”

      So, ‘TAB’ – without putting words in your mouth I guess calling in the cards after SIX would be considered absolutely ridiculous in the majority of business and entrepreneurial circles, then…?

      But I suppose that’s “property gurus” for you, innit – always making their decisions based on how they feel in the morning… ;o)

      Report
  33. Herb
    October 15, 2015 at 15:33

    OTM need to pursue this a contract is legally binding – as they quote on the advice page of their website “Not all agents understand legal requirements”

    Report
  34. OnTheFence
    October 15, 2015 at 15:38

    AM’s financial rating has fallen recently perhaps due to late filing of its annual accounts?

    Report
  35. Traditionalist
    October 15, 2015 at 15:52

    The first thing I did when I read this article, was look at Endole.  Speaks volumes unfortunately.  It will be interesting to see the accounts for next year, now that she is no longer listing with OTM and having returned to whoever she was listing with previously!  This company obviously doesn’t benefit from referrals and repeat business if she was so reliant on Zoopla. Just for the record (and I wish more agents would tell it like it really is with the portals they list with) – we don’t get as many leads from OTM as we do with RM.  However, I have to say that the quality of leads from them is very good indeed.  I certainly cant say that our business has suffered in any way from ditching Zoopla, actually, quite the reverse is true.

    Report
  36. the message
    October 15, 2015 at 16:00

    Traditionalist, this endole stuff is surely a total red herring?? – looks like it just hasnt been updated, nil revenues, nil net assets?? – I think people with no financial literacy are getting a tad carried away?? – they also have nil liabilities which cant be true either. I think they need to be filed at companies house by the end of this month??

     

    Robert – I am surprised at you – very poor research this time

    Report
    1. Robert May
      October 15, 2015 at 16:24

      A red herring? accounts should be filed no later than 9 months after end of financial year it is now October so safe to assume the accounts have been submitted and  so there is a definitive oddness there. Paying for the reports simply to post a on PIE isn’t something I am inclined to do.

      If the  Endole report is misleading   it is now down to  Lisa to show a magnificent  performance up until 26th January and then her income falling off a cliff.

      It isn’t poor research to assume 10 months after a financial year end accounts have been filed. Endole is normally a fairly accurate indicator so I will be surprised if it is far out without a reasonable explanation.

      Report
  37. the message
    October 15, 2015 at 16:41

    if they have been filed it looks like the company has been wound up, which cant be true I would assume. Anyway, it does show no liabilities, but my read is unfiled as of yet. So I dont think anyone reading into her 2014 perf can rely on whats there in any way shape or form. I too am not going to waste money on a deeper investigation, but also wouldnt use whats there to make the kind of assumptions you did

    Report
    1. Robert May
      October 15, 2015 at 17:17

      The end of the financial year is December plus a legal charge added in  Feb means it is very unlikely accounts have not been prepared so there is no real expalanation why they would not have been filed.

       

      I am not sure how you made the leap that no liabilities means they haven’t submitted any accounts, perhaps you can explain.

      Report
  38. AgencyInsider
    October 15, 2015 at 16:46

    A fascinating raft of postings on this story today. Assuming that OTM is as poor as alleged by the lady who gave rise to it and also assuming that this site is read by a fair proportion of the estate agency world, I was rather expecting a whole host of disgruntled agents to  jump on the ‘ We are leaving OTM’ bandwagon and tell us how dreadful it all is. This lack of lemming-like behaviour could not possibly be due to the fact that the vast majority of OTM agents are getting a broadly acceptable level of business from the infant portal and that they are prepared to stick to their commitment to it for the long term. Surely not?!

    Report
  39. smile please
    October 15, 2015 at 16:58

    WOW that escalated quickly ………….

    Report
  40. the message
    October 15, 2015 at 17:06

    Thats a very fair point AI. Despite my personal OTM doubts, I do have real respect for those that have made the leap, and it definitely serves my interest if they keep fighting the good fight at the bleeding edge.

    To be honest, this is a bit of a sideshow, fun but not really relevant. I do think how OTM react will be interewsting, but again a bit of a sideshow.

     

    Lets be honest, if the countrylife adverts, the lack of any directors outside the high end londoners and the overseas houses part of the site don’t get people up in arms, what on earth will!!! 🙂

     

    Report
  41. wilko
    October 15, 2015 at 18:34

    It wouldn’t surprise me if the company were planning a move back to being an online agent……just as they were when they started out.

    Report
    1. PeeBee
      October 15, 2015 at 21:02

       

      …and this is a cracking way to try to shirk off the problem of no longer meeting Membership requirements, innit!

      Methinks you could be on to something, wilko P.I. ;o)

      Report
  42. Woodentop
    October 15, 2015 at 18:49

    You fail because you don’t assess, plan and implement correctly. Putting the blame onto another company for your failings is an easy excuse. She needs to take a look at her business and practices for why she failed.

    Nothing to do with OTM. Many are doing very well with them.

     

    Report
  43. PeeBee
    October 15, 2015 at 21:16

    From their blog – 9 March 2015:

    “Since the launch of On The Market 6 weeks ago we have been keeping a close watch on how it’s been doing for us and all of our properties.

    We have been steadily receiving more and more enquiries as time goes on and we can see that the stats are really good. We have also found that the website is very easy to use and navigate around.

    We are excited to see how On The Market develops, we are expecting the numbers to slowly rise over this year.”

    Yet by AUGUST they had made the decision to dump OTM and already listed (or relisted) on Zoopla – but did not publicly ‘sack’ OTM until 14 OCTOBER.

    Apart from the cheese and coffee mentioned above – anyone smell something?

    Report
    1. PeeBee
      October 15, 2015 at 22:05

      I love it when folk ‘Dislike’ the truth when it’s laid in front of them.

      Speaks volumes…

      Report
      1. Ric
        October 15, 2015 at 22:18

        Funny bunch who dislike statements of fact. It made me laugh earlier in the week when I mentioned the ability to delay portal feeds on Encore Live. I said nothing about whether you should or shouldn’t simply that you can….. and the old dislike button was hit.

        I think the Dislike button should come with the condition you have to say why you dislike it! As why someone would dislike what I said I have no idea.

        Report
    2. AgencyInsider
      October 15, 2015 at 22:28

      Well spotted Peebee. I had not got that far on their site. To be fair they look like a pretty good outfit. But this open letter has hallmarks of something ‘not quite right’. Can’t put a finger on it – and probably would not want to, as I suspect it is rather soft and smelly.

      Report
  44. PeeBee
    October 17, 2015 at 10:50

    Mr Mealham – I bring this ‘down to the bottom’ of the thread to make it easy for you to find.

    As said above, and so far unanswered, you are doing your damnest to engineer a situation which would (were you not a million miles off-base, that is…) potentially expose some of your members to hefty financial penalty.

    So – I ask again – does it or does it not bother you one iota that your actions may result in a situation that in your opinion will cause financial harm or embarrassment to them in one way, shape or form?

    Report
  45. Trevor Mealham
    October 19, 2015 at 11:23

    PeeBee, if the CMA should find that OTM is a cartel post their ‘were just observing’ comment, then my view will have been right.

    I do know of agents who wish to leave AM who I have said should take advice from CMA. It’s not me who will choose whether or not to impose fines on member agents or AM/OTM directors.

    In reverse. If you are  a AM member and the whole situation back fires. Who will you blame. People like me. The AM rep. It’s management or yourself.

    Report
    1. PeeBee
      October 19, 2015 at 13:54

      So NO definitive answer then, despite pressing you for one.

      No surprises there.

      “I do know of agents who wish to leave AM who I have said should take advice from CMA.”

      Why? Why the CMA?

      IF they want to leave, why do you direct them to take advice from a body that can offer no constructive advice for such purpose?

      Of course that’s yet another question that you won’t want to answer…

      Those that have signed up as Members are bound by the Contract they willingly entered into.

      Should, for whatever reasons, they wish to break that Contract, then they should take appropriate advice from a Lawyer whose expertise is in Contract Law who will advise them if their reasons to wish to break their Contract would stand up to possible Legal action.

      For someone who frequently states that they are called in to advise ‘X’ group or ‘Y’ party in all things Estate Agency Legislation and Practice, I would question the last time you brushed up on basic Contract Law – looks to me like a refresher wouldn’t be a bad idea…

      Report
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