Have agents shot themselves in the foot over OTM, asks Financial Times

| Rosalind Renshaw

The war of words over property portals continues apace after Rightmove’s record-breaking results this week.

The results came in ahead of all broker expectations and revealed a 75.5% profit margin, an 82% market share, and a growth in agent members of 2%.

In the Financial Times, Henry Mance writes: “Have estate agents shot themselves in the foot?

“Their launch of OnTheMarket was meant to break the cosy duopoly of Rightmove and Zoopla that dominates Britain’s market for online property ads. In fact it may inadvertently be turning a duopoly into a monopoly.”

Mance said: “[Rightmove] now has 50% more listings than Zoopla. Its shares, already at skyscraper heights, added a storey.

“There may be a lesson here about first-move advantage: Rightmove grew steadily, before Zoopla was assembled from a jumble of assets by Ferrari-driving entrepreneur Alex Chesterman.”

Mance adds: “More broadly, recent history suggests it is hard to topple an internet business based on network effects, by trying to offer virtually the same thing. Just ask Microsoft how its search engine Bing is getting on against Google.

“OnTheMarket says it can still overtake Zoopla and then out-compete Rightmove on price. But if estate agents want to tackle Rightmove’s pricing, they either have to offer something completely different (a Snapchat to Rightmove’s Facebook) — or wait for regulators to step in.

“Regulatory action, a distant prospect, becomes a tad more likely if Rightmove ends up a monopoly.

“Perhaps that is OnTheMarket’s real genius.”

Over to City A.M. which has Russell Quirk making, well, some rather predictable predictions.

OnTheMarket will “fizzle out” before its first birthday, he says, noting that it has “shouted from the rooftops” that in its first six months it has had 5m visits this month.

However, Quirk – whose own business, eMoov, is among the online agents banned from OTM – says OTM has failed to gain any meaningful inventory, while both Rightmove and Zoopla go from “strength to strength”.

Meanwhile, the analysts take their own view.

Fiona Cincottaa, of finspreads, said Rightmove’s figures suggest it “has not suffered the same fate as competition Zoopla, which in contrast has been negatively affected by the arrival of OnTheMarket”.

William Packer, of Exane BNP Paribas, said Rightmove is “gaining traffic share from Zoopla”.

He said that in its post-results briefing to City analysts, Rightmove estimated that net membership churn from Zoopla has stopped, but that it did not expect to see any “rapid return” of OTM agents.

And will Rightmove’s seemingly unstoppable quest to put yet more storeys on its skyscraper continue?

Yes, according to Packer.

Yesterday, he advised investors that there is “scope for Rightmove to expand their share of agent wallet”.

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49 Comments

  1. Robert May
    July 31, 2015 at 06:54

    The answer Mr Mace is no and you would do well to understand why.

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  2. EHenderson
    July 31, 2015 at 07:23

    Oh dear Robert. It is because of your view (shared by many others) that has let this silly project gather steam.

    It it will be the little guy (of which there are many) that suffers as a result of this.

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  3. Ric
    July 31, 2015 at 07:42

    Gutted. Thanks a lot AM. Before Ian contacted us, we had suffered only minor increases from RM and only now and again these increases were applied perhaps every 2nd or 3rd year. We never had products pushed down our necks nor was I played off against the next agent with RM saying “they are having products so you need them”

    The reps used to visit me 2 or 3 times a year just to see if RM was delivering, I suspect they might just pop in around Jan/February now or it might even just be a letter notifying me of my choices, take it, or take it harder!

    Just great this, AM has really created a monster with RM and one which was well under control with Z as its nearest competitor. I just cannot believe this has happened, now RM will probably increase the membership fees every year at around 5% to 10% and no doubt offer me a chance to have products to freeze the membership for a year (for a year, yep until the next review that is, not even a freeze for 2 years)

    I started to think that perhaps RM stepped their game up on getting a strong hold when Z arrived, but I don’t think that was the case, they clearly waited for OTM.

    Just didn’t see this coming, but proof is there, for the first time ever RM reporting a HUGE increase in profits and a view that more can be made and all because of OTM.

    Well I hold my hands up as a contributor to RM’s recent success and stronghold on the number 1 spot. If only AM/OTM had not formed we would have been reading, RM reports a loss as does Z although both expect to make a modest improvement next year by ensure they work smarter for their member agents.

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    1. Robert May
      July 31, 2015 at 08:07

      Hold steady Ric, this story is hollow gufferage from peple suffering FT/City group think. It is  designed to un-nerve AM members, don’t let it.

       

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      1. Ric
        July 31, 2015 at 08:22

        Morning Robert, very little un-nerves me to be honest…. I have always said, if OTM fails, I will be better off at the end of each month not having to pay them and going back to 1 portal……. and I will be no worse off winning business.

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        1. Robert May
          July 31, 2015 at 09:01

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          I know, I was just using the  opportunity to reinforce the point that the City are all thinking the same way because someone has told them how to think.

          It is lazy journalism again schmoozing apparent success “Ferrari-driving Chesterman” really sums it up. Real wealth comes from honesty and integrity not material wealth. Poor decisions by poor executives doesn’t make the bloke who benefits anything more than lucky.

          I couldn’t work out how to read your post so replied in a way that suited me best!

          Morning Ric!

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    2. Ric
      July 31, 2015 at 09:12

      oh please – 2 dislikes? Tell me….. which part am I wrong on? You are not telling me RM already had a strong hold are you……?

      I bet I am confusing the haters this morning….

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      1. smile please
        July 31, 2015 at 10:21

        I am not a hater but confussed me,

        But that maybe the the couple of bottles of chateauneuf du pape!

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        1. Ric
          July 31, 2015 at 11:24

          Hey Smile. I just had to let AM know that I had and no doubt the industry also never felt RM were ever in a position of dominance until they [OTM] came along.

          I wish I could go back to the 25th January when RM were weak and venerable and I had the upper hand during my fee reviews. I could have told RM, I will drop em and go to Z if you don’t play fairly.

          Such a missed opportunity to use Z to my advantage.

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          1. smile please
            July 31, 2015 at 13:53

            I would not kick yourself, i have never managed a fee reduction from RM no matter how hard i try, maybe frozen for a year if lucky!

            Z dropped to the floor though, halved what i was paying them.

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          2. smile please
            July 31, 2015 at 13:59

            I would not kick yourself, i have never managed a fee reduction from RM no matter how hard i try, maybe frozen for a year if lucky! Z dropped to the floor though, halved what i was paying them.

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  4. Lance Trendall
    July 31, 2015 at 08:14

    Remember what happened to Rattners when he showed contempt for his customers? If rightmove continue to rip off estate agents the same could happen to them. Without the properties on their portal they would have no traffic, their bubble could burst as fast as Rattners’.

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    1. Rivero
      July 31, 2015 at 09:17

      I’m sorry but that analogy just doesn’t work. Gerald Rattner described his own product as **** and his customers had the freedom of choice to buy elsewhere. RM’s customers are the Agents and they do not realistically have a choice to leave RM…unless there was an Agents pact to do so en mass…which as we have seen will never happen. This is the problem, whilst RM’s paying customers are the Agents, RM only really cares about what it’s users think and they continue to use RM in their millions. The harsh fact is RM were the first to market with a quite brilliant business model. The only way RM could be toppled is if a site with different and better functionality and a pretty much unlimited marketing budget were to enter the market…and I hate to break it you all but that is definitely not OTM. Again herein lies the problem, OTM was not brought to market because it provides a better experience for users, it was brought to market by agents looking to protect their cost centres.

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      1. Robert May
        July 31, 2015 at 09:45

        Sorry to but in Rivero but Rightmove’s grip on the status quo is a bit tenuous at the moment. I agree while OTM is sailing along behind RM it will carry on sailing in dirty air. If it tacks and sails its own course it can take advantage of any shift in the direction of the market. If it does RM will suffer.
        Personally I would leave Rightmove well alone for the time being allowing them to charge your competitors more surely has to be encouraged. Increasing and controlling your competitors fixed costs is something many competing businesses don’t get to do.  By all means  cut off all the frilly extras par back to a basic subscription and control you own cost that way  leave all the Joe Muggins firms to cough up the bit of profit you are no longer contributing.
        Different and better functionality? Check!  Unlimited marketing budget?  Proven  not necessary, with £0 spent on marketing it is possible to reach 78 countries on all 5 continents  in 6 different languages and achieve 44% stickiness in just 2 months with a basic beta system.  There is only one thing preventing AM going to 10,000 branches  and that is……not for discussion on here.

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  5. danny
    July 31, 2015 at 08:53

    Congrats to Ian and all at the agent mutual team… Bravo chaps, really stuck it to them .

    – form portal to challenge market leader, rattle sabers ,check

    – start talking incessantly about Zoopla just before launch to encourage everyone off the number 2  ,check

    – leave Rightmove as a virtual monopoly to do what it wants again , check

    serious question to all the AM loyal subjects out there … Did any one of you join On the market because Zoopla charged you too much ? I suspect not

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    1. M Barnard
      July 31, 2015 at 09:08

      Danny if more Agents don’t join OTM then Rightmove will just continue on it’s merry way. What better way to control their onslaught than an Agent owned portal.

      Remember, of every pound an Agent spends with RM 75p turns straight into profit for them.

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      1. danny
        July 31, 2015 at 11:10

        M Barnard , OTM is the answer to Righmove in the same way a sticking plaster is the answer to herpes … It’s not the solution , it employs Ian Springett to spend a load of our cash without any care for results . We need innovation and competition , OTM does not breed this

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        1. PeeBee
          July 31, 2015 at 13:50

          danny – a sticking plaster IS “the answer to herpes”…

          …IF you know where to stick it and when!

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        2. Robert May
          July 31, 2015 at 14:12

          Yes it does Danny

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  6. Paul Boswell
    July 31, 2015 at 09:04

    It’s all your own fault, stop moaning and stop advertising on RM. As the mere-cats say – Simples!!

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  7. BD_IndependentAgent
    July 31, 2015 at 09:17

    Shock horror RM got stronger. Wow, didn’t see that coming (joke in case that confuses anyone one here…)

    Interesting that I can’t read the word CONSUMER anywhere here – but then again our industry (unlike any other) isn’t affected by them is it – is it???

    Surely it’s about saving ourselves portal fees (which several competitors in my area have not done by dropping Z) right??

    Fair play to RM I say and well done to anyone who made that happen for them. Mr Springett, you’ve got 5 months to become No.2.

    Tick Tock, Tick Tock.

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  8. JAM01
    July 31, 2015 at 10:06

    Sorry ladies and gents, but many of us (who were sneered at) stated this would happen at the outset. The ONLY way OM would (and still COULD) be successful is if all of those on there take their properties OFF Rightmove and advertise ONLY on AM and their own company website. But they have not had the spherical objects to do so. As a result, you have single handedly reinforced RM rather than disrupting it. They must be giggling like kids in a sweet shop.

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  9. wilko
    July 31, 2015 at 10:50

    IMO, this proves that AM/OTM is on track to achieve what they set out to do;

    ” net membership churn from Zoopla has stopped, but that it did not expect to see any “rapid return” of OTM agents”……ie 1st job done.. Zoopla on its way out as a major player.

    ” there is “scope for Rightmove to expand their share of agent wallet”.”…Which was always going to be the case. They were always going to increase, and increase, and increase  their fees, we all knew / know that……….That is why OTM  NEEDS to be there for pro agents when it RM fees reach a tipping point.

    I think that when that tipping point arrives the professional high street industry will arrange a monumental date when the vast majority will all switch at the same time from RM to OTM. With only circa 5% of the properties on rm, OTM would become the major portal (doing the same as Rightmove-as this article already suggests) at a fraction of the cost for its members.

     

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    1. dave_d
      July 31, 2015 at 11:15

      We can only hope!

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  10. Trevor Mealham
    July 31, 2015 at 11:20

    Whats to say the CMA won’t still step in and class OTM and AM as a cartel. The CMA have NOT said they have gone away.. …………..

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    1. RealAgent
      July 31, 2015 at 11:24

      I honestly am staggered you’ve posted this drivel YET AGAIN….are you honestly worried that someone out there might not have heard you with the previous 4o times you’ve said it Trevor?!

       

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      1. PeeBee
        July 31, 2015 at 13:16

        HEAR, HEAR, Real Agent.

        Mr Mealham – with all the wrongs in the industry stop surely you can turn your attentions away from a portal simply offering property for sale on behalf of its’ Membership.

        You’ve been sounding like a lovestruck teenager whose attentions have been spurned for too long now to make anyone feel sowwee for you.

        Time to boil a different bunny I suggest.

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        1. Trevor Mealham
          July 31, 2015 at 13:25

          Hi Paul (PeeBee),

          As I understood AM and OTM have different directors. As such there is comparison in the Trinity (being one company) and three counties agents (being a separate entity). Thus Trinity upholding three counties agent rules = cartel.

          Love struck sounds better than dumb struck. ……….

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          1. PeeBee
            July 31, 2015 at 13:40

            Ahhh… I’m glad you came back to me – I needed to check something.

            Those photos you want – the Goth brunette in basque and stilettos – brown envelope to the PO Box as usual I take it?

            And I must ask – why purple? – it’s such a 70’s colour.

            It’s being phased out – didn’t you know…! ;o)

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            1. Robert May
              July 31, 2015 at 14:10

              possibly a  present for Simon in the company livery.

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      2. Trevor Mealham
        July 31, 2015 at 13:21

        I think maybe many 1,000’s RealAgent  🙂

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    2. Ric
      July 31, 2015 at 14:57

      Nor have you it seems…….. 😉

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  11. RealAgent
    July 31, 2015 at 11:21

    I haven’t posted on any of these stories for a while as its been the same comments time after time however I find the comments from some on here simply amazing. It seems they will find any excuse to blame agents that opted to support OTM for the results Rightmove announced. Are those same people really suggesting that as an industry we were better off supporting two such companies RM and Z and that somehow Zoopla kept RM honest?! Dream on, without OTM, Zoopla would have pushed ahead and and some point you would have had two companies putting prices up and making huge profits.

    I very much doubt whether there were many agents, if any that believed that OTM would topple RM, but actually it may not be popular to say it but actually RM is quite a good vehicle for advertising my properties. My budget allowed me to use a second and I decided to make that second OTM instead of Zoopla because, firstly I felt that if I were going to support a portal  then supporting one where estate agents interests were at least in part alined made sense. Secondly a commercial concern like Zoopla will never look to replace RM, its just possible that  OTM could, albeit some years down the line, as more agents decide to try it.

    For those that do I will say this, 6 months in, its worked for us. I was sceptical at the start with how good it would be for Lettings (as Z was actually better than RM for this) but as it happens OTM seems to work well with Lettings enquiries too.

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    1. wilko
      July 31, 2015 at 14:08

      ” I will say this, 6 months in, its worked for us”

      And this remains one of the most important facts…….it works for us too….we are getting more and more leads the longer the site has been live.

      This is something that those (with a vested interest in seeing otm fail) absolutely hate because  1. It shows it works well – and 2. They can’t debate against this – as it is fact.

      This is why the ante OM brigade drag out ridiculous arguments as, in truth, they have little more to say or add. I think they realise that OTM is here for years rather than months and that, at some point, other pro agents will see it as great value for money compared with the other portals on offer.

      I recently took a few minutes to look at some of the old comments when the AM idea was new. Some of the same posters here were saying that “it won’t get off the ground” “It wont get anywhere near 5,000 members”, “The launch will flop”, “members will leave when it doesn’t work” and so on. The arguments now are “we disagree with the viewing figures” “It doesn’t supply leads” “It has lead to RM charging more” “it won’t last after a year”……..

      I wonder, at what point , the penny will actually drop, and those same posters will admit that it is a good portal that works and supplies leads to it’s members?…….

      Only then could they be taken seriously…

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      1. harry hood
        August 2, 2015 at 08:17

        But it doesn’t work……

        You have had an enquiry or more from OTM but the price you pay for those is ridiculous. The cost per enquiry is far more than  Zoopla and certainly far more than Zoopla plus the other free portals.

        So saying it is working because you have a lead is like saying horse and carriage works for you becuase it gets you there a few years too late.

        The point is the net result is attrocious. You pay more to RMV for the same thing, you don’t get Zoopla results which have a be rate and success rate and you are stuck in that limiting contract for 5 years.

        Get a spreadsheet and do the numbers….do the hard work instead of wishfull thinking on here. Just because you want it to be true doesn’t mean it is more likely to be true.

         

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  12. MF
    July 31, 2015 at 11:49

    If nothing else, lots of agents now know they DON’T need to be on RM and Z, one is enough in most cases.

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  13. PeeBee
    July 31, 2015 at 13:28

    Oh, dear – here we go again.  SSDD, as the wordsmith Stephen King would have us say.

    I’m simply going to repost what I said a couple of days ago, in response to the RM Half-Year w!11ywaving exercise which got the Anti-AM Brigade all moist at the thought of doom and disaster for all that sail in the good ship OnTheMarket.com.

    “OKAY… So lets look at these winning figures and the claims from those chucking the banana skins around that it’s all OTM’s fault that RM are steaming ahead of the game, shall we?

    ADVERTISER NUMBERS:

    2010: +7%;  2011: +2%;  2012: +0.1%; 2013: +3.5%;  2014: +3%;  2015 +1%

    LOWEST % GROWTH FOR 3 YEARS 

    REVENUE PER ADVERTISER:

    2010: +20%;  2011: +18%;  2012:  +20%;  2013: +14%;  2014: +13%;  2015: +10%

    LOWEST % GROWTH FOR 6 YEARS

    REVENUE:

    2010: +26%;  2011: +20%;  2012:  +23%;  2013: +16%;  2014: +20%;  2015: +16%

    LOWEST (JOINT) % GROWTH FOR 6 YEARS

    UNDERLYING OPERATING PROFIT:

    2010: +40%;  2011: +25%;  2012: +28%;  2013: +15%;  2014: +22%;  2015: +18%

    LOWEST % GROWTH FOR 2 YEARS

    UNDERLYING OPERATING MARGIN:

    2010: 66%;  2011: 71%;  2012: 73.5%;  2013: 73%;  2014: 74.1%;  2015: 75.5%

    % STILL INCREASED DESPITE OTHER KRA DECREASES

    Anybody else, like me, wonder what these figures WOULD HAVE READ if OTM hadn’t stepped in and p!$$ed on the RM firework?

    And anyone care to forecast what they will be in 12 months time?”

    Please don’t get too het-up on it, folks – we OTM Agents would much rather win our next sales through being the best at what we do rather than pick up your pieces when you choke on the truth… ;o)

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    1. PeeBee
      July 31, 2015 at 13:48

      I’m happy for as many as they want to ‘Dislike’ my comment – because it proves that ankles don’t like being gnawed.

      But do yourselves a favour.  Grow a pair – doesn’t matter how small they may be – and debate the matter.

      Otherwise it just smacks that you just don’t like others playing with the better toys –  and we should have all left that nursery school mentality behind a long time ago…

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      1. Robert May
        July 31, 2015 at 14:17

        They are reps Peebee, they snuck off at 1 (POETS day) so you should be OK – you watch.

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        1. Robert May
          July 31, 2015 at 18:50

          As predicted; classic rep!

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  14. GPL
    July 31, 2015 at 13:54

    Amazing to read the…Blightmove are stronger because of OnTheMarket.com ….comments….

    Really, those of you that comment are business people of some sort and didn’t envisage pain?!…. Really!?!!!

    3 Doors in a corridor folks…..

    On the left, sign says Blightmove!…. enter this room and all you see are sheep bleating about Blightmove, but baaaaah, they are all standing there….

    Middle Door….. signposted Dithering, Frightened, Lost, Undecided…. Yup!…. lots of bleating in there too…. same folk switching between Left & Middle Doors….. in fact, knock the wall down and save them walking from room to room!

    Right Door….. signposted OnTheMarket.com   …what’s this?….. folk that clearly made a decision…. know the risks, prepared to commit for medium/long term, decided that there is a better way that serves them and their industry…. that’ll be the real estate agents.

    It’s a long corridor and when you enter into the daylight there is a trash bin marked Bloopla…. oh…. and some guy called Quirk talking about not seeing a 1st Birthday?….. Mr Quirk?….. I will Nail my reputation to your forehead that OnTheMarket.com will celebrate its 1st Birthday and burst ballons with your head emblazoned on them…. as you truly are full of hot air!

    For the rest of us….. Blightmove is a World Class Gravy Train for its owners & shareholders and we just keep topping up the gravy!

    I understand Blightmove are sponsoring every wall in Great Britain, applying their Brand Artwork…. just so estate agents have a shorter walk before beating their heads against the walls….. it’s how it is folks….. if you don’t break them you make them.

    How long must this embarrassment go on?…… Blightmove represent THE UK Estate Agency Industry….. they continue to insert their portal finger as far as it will go and you keep smiling?

    Many of you did absolutely nothing before OnTheMarket arrived other than bleating and so you continue to bleat now! Instead of bleating…… get off your @rses and either support the alternative which is OnTheMarket.com or summon your Blightmove Rep and get yourself happy!….. otherwise, bend over and continue to take it for as long as you can suffer the pain!

    Blahmoves latest Agent Questionnaire is no more than your mother or father comforting you after you fell and hurt your knee!

    Repeat after me….. I must not answer the phone in my office saying…. Good Afternoon Blightmove, how can I help you!

    The sad this is we shafted ourselves when we embraced Darth Blightmove!

     

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    1. harry hood
      August 2, 2015 at 08:21

      Yes or No please GPL. Are you on Rightmove?

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  15. GPL
    August 1, 2015 at 13:30

    Taking just the Headline… Have Agents shot themselves in the foot over OTM…. asks The Financial Times?

    The Answer… if we remain queued up dutifully behind Rightmove rather than OnTheMarket then our industry remains firmly on the path to oblivion!

    Remember Hoover?…… People now say Dyson!…… if we stick our heads in the sand it is enivitable that People will eventually refer to our industry by simply quoting Rightmove!

    Get Yourself Unhappy!…. because Rightmove is monumentally the Wrongmove!

    If you’re not behind OnTheMarket.com you are flushing our industry down a Rightmove Toilet.

     

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    1. PeeBee
      August 1, 2015 at 13:56

      Thing is, GPL – OnTheMarket.com has no ‘value’ to FT or any other financial publication or institution.  They cannot recommend ‘buy’; ‘hold’ or ‘dump’ because there are no shares to trade.  They can’t even recommend whether to NumptyFund or RunAMile!

      Their attentions always will be with the PLCs where people want to read about the stock trends and they are being protectionist for that reason only – and I think that most forget that.

      Jeez – look what you made me do… I came over all serious there for a minute.

      How very dare you! ;o)

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      1. GPL
        August 1, 2015 at 14:19

        Serious on a Saturday PB?!….. lie down, think calm relaxing thoughts… portal free!

        Yes FT only int in Money Makers however it’s just another indicator of how we do drive a FTSE Company.

        Many of us dumped Bloopla, and as we knew, that action grew Blightmove, which demonstrated without any doubt how agents portal decisions can impact a FTSE Company.

        Blightmove are not reckless enough to not consider what could happen to them if agents shifted in numbers…. hence this…. froth from the very top of their latte Agent Questionnaire…. just enough of a nod to say we care…. and just light enough to blow off!

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        1. Robert May
          August 2, 2015 at 08:23

          Good morning GPL, Good morning Peebee,  How do I get the pair of you an a room? I am prepared to travel anywhere  in the country just to sit you  both down and talk. After Monday I can  be anywhere at anytime if I can just have some of your time to show you how to use what you have built properly.

           

           

           

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          1. harry hood
            August 2, 2015 at 08:27

            what are you so desperate to show? I’ll listen…

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    2. harry hood
      August 2, 2015 at 08:25

      Why are you trying to save you industry? Why is it so important to you to prove you are a “real agent” all the time?

      It sounds luddite or like the miners. Why can’t you just ask what is the best way to serve customers and build a business?

      It’s like taxi drivers moaning about uber. Why don’t you just go and work for uber?

      The way you work today will be different to how you work in the future. Trying to defend this status quo is figthing against the tide and its painful to watch you.

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      1. Robert May
        August 2, 2015 at 11:54

        Why am I trying to save my industry? It isn’t just my industry I am trying to save Harry.
        Why is it important to prove I am a real agent? That is my USP, you will have to put up with me using it and constantly reinforcing it.  In any business or industry knowing what you are talking about is important, having empathy with customers and commanding respect are all positives.
        I am working on generation 5 technology while others are shackled to legacy generation 3 systems, that means you haven’t properly understood about ludites or status quo. I applaud your attempt at a put down but your failure to understand the landscape means that insult backfired.
        The Uber argument, do you know that passive intermediaries have been trying to uber Estate Agency for nearly 20 years? Why don’t I go and work for Uber? I’ll stick with what I know thanks.
        The last bit, that is you teaching me to suck eggs, the latest cutting edge cloud tech rolled out last year, I designed that in October 2001, 14 years ago.
        Harry I appreciate your offer of someone to chat to but unless you are  an alter ego of Ian Springett, Eileen Henderson, Smile Please, GPL, Wilko, Ric, Paul H or Peebee, it really would be a very dull conversation.

        Report
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